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Thread: "...and this just in" Honda Accord

  1. #1
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    Default "...and this just in" Honda Accord

    ITEM 8. Honda Accord Lxi (86-88),
    p.37, reclassify to ITA. Effective 1/01/02."
    MOTION (Patterson/Limbert ) PASSED.
    Mellor, Barnes opposed.

  2. #2
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    Those of you in the Atlanta Region SCCA will have had the pleasure of reading OPM Motorsports' Tom Fowler rant about this in the August issue of the Steering Wheel. He didn't hold back much.

    Bob Pinkowski
    Atlanta Region SCCA
    2001 ARRC Committee
    OPM Motorsports
    ITS Honda Prelude

    [This message has been edited by bobpink (edited August 30, 2001).]

  3. #3
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    Dan,

    Thanks for the update. I was pretty sure it was being reclassified, but didnt know if the carbureted Accords were eligible... a friend has a DX he wants to prep to IT specs and take through school.

    Also Bob, does Atlanta Region have Steering Wheel on the web? If so I'd love to read that article...

    Thanks again to both of you.

  4. #4
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    I'd like to be able to get ahold of a copy of the Steering Wheel if anyone can fax me the article by Tom, or if it is in fact on the web. I was at Road Atlanta for the regional a few weeks back and saw Tom run his Accord. I also had the opportunity to spend a fair amount of time talking to Bill Perry from Rivergate who brought out his Accord. The fact that the car has gotten moved to ITA is absolutely outrageous. From what I saw the car is a perfect fit for ITB since in a thoroughly well prepared state, with an excellent driver like Tom, the car is capable of running with or near the Volvos. With somewhat limited prep, such as Bill Perry's car, the car is a mid-pack car in terms of relative speed, with a good driver. It's bad enough that in moving the car to ITA it is instantly made obsolete and totally uncompetitive, a real loss to those individuals who invested their time and money in building a car that now doesn't have a prayer of running with its new classmates. What's even worse, from what I have been told by a couple of individuals in the thick of this argument, is the rumor that the person who made the recommendation to the SCCA to reclassify the car and had the greatest influence on getting it reclassed is an advisor to the comp board for IT and actually races a Volvo in ITB in his region. If this is in fact true like I have heard, I have to say this sounds like a serious conflict of interest on that individual's part and an even more inexcusable action on the part of the comp board for actually entertaining that recommendation. Has anyone else out there heard this story?

    And doesn't this completely fly in the face of the comp board's previous positions concerning "competition adjustments?" I mean, they won't change the classified weight of a car if it is too heavy yet they'll move a car to a completely different class if it has the potential to be too competitive for some people's "special interests." This absolutely makes no sense to me. The car was originally classified in ITB based on their magical "secret formula" - how can they justify this move given their past reluctance to make any other "competition adjustments?"

    Anyone have any thought?

    I should add that I really have no vested interest in the reclassification of this car, I'm actually building a CRX for ITC. I had had a few passing thoughts about building an Accord for ITB someday but the likelihood of that was very small even before this all took place. I just can't stand it when a governing body acts in such a hypocritical manner, or when someone with such a blatant conflict of interest is allowed to have so much influence in a matter that is going to inevitably result in such financial loss to other people.

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    It is unfortunate that active "members" of the Sports Car CLUB of America feel so disenfranchised and unable to use what is supposed to be a representative system to legislate our racing activities. It might be a good idea see if we can come to consensus on what the underlying concern is.

    For that to happen, it will be necessary to set aside individual model/class issues--we will never agree on the particulars and will only succeed in looking like we are just worried about our own favorite model's competitiveness. The implication in this strand is that an individual with both clout in the system and a vested interest in the Accord classification issue may have inappropriately influenced that decision. As heinous as that would be, it is not the root of the problem...

    As I have been following things, my sense is that there is a lot of frustration (in all of the make-specific forums) with the lack of "transparency", where the IT classification and specification setting process is concerned. If we were able to see into the process, then there would be no room for even the suggestion that something hinky is going on.

    Thoughts on how to proceed? I confess that I have never been very clued-in about the 'off-track' part of the organization...

    Kirk

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    RFloyd wrote:

    What's even worse, from what I have been told by a couple of individuals in the thick of this argument, is the rumor that the person who made the recommendation to the SCCA to reclassify the car and had the greatest influence on getting it reclassed is an advisor to the comp board for IT and actually races a Volvo in ITB in his region. If this is in fact true like I have heard, I have to say this sounds like a serious conflict of interest on that individual's part and an even more inexcusable action on the part of the comp board for actually entertaining that recommendation. Has anyone else out there heard this story?

    Mr RFloyd,

    I don't mean to butt in here, but don't you think you should have independently verified your "story" before posting it here? I happen to be friends with the "alleged" Ad Hoc committee member and know for a FACT that he abstains from getting involved in anything that might be perceived as a conflict of interest, particularly in this case. So I think spreading libelous material on this forum is the wrong thing to do.

    The fact is that MORE than this one person, who has the same amount of influence as anyone else on the IT Ad Hoc committee, felt as if the Honda Accord LXi had the potential to dominate ITB. The fact that it won't be as competitive in ITA isn't as important, in my opinion, as we have a lot of Volvos, Golfs, BMW's, and other cars that would be made obsolete if the Honda remains in ITB. I feel bad for those who have made an investment in the Accords, because they were simply taking a car that obviously had potential and developed it to the front very quickly.

    FWIW, if your theory was true, then how did the ITB 8V Scirocco with the HT motor get classified? With the same motor as a Golf (10:1) and 100 lbs less AND better aerodynamics, it would obviously seem to be a threat to the Volvos wouldn't it? But it got classified!

    Being on any SCCA committee or board is a thankless job, and unless you've been there I'd recommend holding back on the poison pen, especially in this case.

    I'll see you on the track!

    Respectfully,

    Mark Coffin
    #14 ITC VW Scirocco

  7. #7
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    Has there actually been an LXi that dominated in any region or any track? If there is, I haven't heard of it.

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    Originally posted by racer14itc:
    Being on any SCCA committee or board is a thankless job, and unless you've been there I'd recommend holding back on the poison pen, especially in this case
    Well said!

    I would like to get some additional information on the "magical secret formula" used to classify cars. Can you or someone you know provide any info?

    Thanks!



    ------------------
    Matt Downing
    www.downingracing.com

  9. #9
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    OK, so now I'm Bad Guy #1!

    Let's start buy revisiting the fact that I did say that I had heard the "rumor" from several people involved that this is what transpired. The fact is in posting this question ("Has anyone else out there heard this story? "), I AM trying to independantly verify the "story." Nowhere did I state that I knew this was in fact the full and accurate truth of the matter, I would better describe it as a very disturbing "rumor" that was passed along by an individual who did have a very vested ($$$) interest in the matter. I've always thought of this board as an open forum for opinion, a place where questions can be put forth, insight can be gained, etc., etc. I most certainly did not mean to indict the individual mentioned for any wrong-doing, I was merely stating that "if this is true," then there's clearly a conflict of interest involved. If this is in fact NOT true, then my question has been answered and now we ALL have heard both sides of the story (since I heaven't heard anything official from SCCA about why the car was reclassed - specifics, not just "potential to dominate the class.") If that person or anyone associated with him/her feels that my questioning of the events that supposedly transpired feels that I have wrongly accused or offended, I sincerely apologize. I am only seeking clarity.

    I would state that it's at least my belief that no one person on the commitee that reviewed this matter should have had any personal interest in the matter (i.e. actively competing in ITB in ANY car) for it to be completely fair. Realistic? Probably not gonna happen.

    You stated:
    "MORE than this one person...felt as if the Honda Accord LXi had the potential to dominate ITB. The fact that it won't be as competitive in ITA isn't as important, in my opinion, as we have a lot of Volvos, Golfs, BMW's, and other cars that would be made obsolete if the Honda remains in ITB"

    I have to respectfully disagree on one thing: If it is true that the SCCA has a standardized procedure for classifying cars based on the weighing of a number of different variables such as displacement, weight, engine configuration (# of valves, SOHC, DOHC, etc), and other such factors, and the Accord LXi was judged by the same standards (the "magical secret formula" I sarcastcally refer to) as all other cars and fell within the "window" of performance potential that is called "ITB" then why was it moved? The comp board has clearly shown in the past that they won't make adjustments to a car's spec's based on the effect that car might have on other car's competitiveness in the same class. In questioning my "theory" Mr. Coffin, with the 8V Scirocco example, you are actually making my point! Based on the fact that the Scirocco has an obvious mechanical advantage over the Golf that it is classed the same as, it has the potential to "dominate" the Golf and should therefore be moved to ITA since, according to your logic concerning the decision with the Accord, we're not as concerned about Schirocco owners being uncompetitive in ITA as we are concerned about Golf owners maintaining their same level of competitiveness in ITB! This CLEARLY is in direct conflict with the statement in the GCR pertaining to IT regs that the rules and the governing body that creates and enforces them DOES NOT guarantee the competitiveness of any car model in any class. Obviously this is not too big of a concern since folks running the Golfs are doing rather well. However, if someone built a real ringer of a Scirocco, who's to say that the precident set by the comp board with respect to the Accord couldn't be argued just the same for the Scirocco? Or any other car? Heck, I saw a red Volvo (you all know who I'm talking about) at Road Atlanta that beat the Accord, and everything else in ITB, both at the regional a few weeks ago and at the ARRC last fall. Maybe those Volvos have the potential to dominate ITB - I for one think they should be moved to ITA! You would think the sensible thing to do if they felt the Accord was too competitive would be to add a few hundred pounds to the minimum weight for the car... OH NO! That would be viewed as a competition adjustment! Do you understand the nature of the sarcasm? Why do we stick to a position sometimes and then willfully do the opposite in other cases?

    I'm not condemning the job anyone who serves in a leadership position with SCCA. I really do value the fact that these people make time in their lives to help administrate and guide this organization and give the rest of a place to "go and play." To a person who views road racing as my personal "raison d'etre" they are all my HEROES.

    I just don't think that the decision was the correct one, flame me if you like. To say that because I haven't served on the comp board I should hold the people who made this decision beyond reproach is rediculous IMHO. Let the world know what specific reasons caused this car to be reclassed when others that appear more dominant aren't and the nay-sayers will be quelled.

    And Mark, you can bet you'll see me on the track! I look forward to it

    Sorry 'bout the long post...


    C Ya

    Richard

  10. #10
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    I don't know of any formula, so I can't speak knowledgeably about how cars are classified. But if I recall correctly, the 1.5 Honda CRX now in ITC used to be an ITB car. And I'd be happy to see it put back...



    Mark

    [This message has been edited by racer14itc (edited September 26, 2001).]

    [This message has been edited by racer14itc (edited September 26, 2001).]

  11. #11
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    Man I hate this crap - why!!!

    It's a cheap car and makes a good racer...

    Can you race a Prelude in B??? Is it worth it?

    K

  12. #12
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    Anyway you slice it the Accord guys got screwed. It's not a ITA car period.

    I guess SCCA couldn't have Honda win ITA, ITC and ITB at the ARRC.

    I guess the 'B' in ITB.... stands for???

    Anything 'B'ut Hondas.

    Tom @ OPM is right!

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    To those interested in the article written by Tom Fowler for the Steering Wheel please e-mail me and I will send it to you ([email protected]). It's too long to post here.

    I spoke with Tom today and he cleared up the "rumor" of a certain ITB Volvo driver being behind the Accord being moved to ITA. Tom spoke to the Volvo driver when this all began and found he did not start the deal to get the car re-classified. It started last year at the ARRC when a few SCCA people took notice of the Accord and how it was doing. Things went from there.... And this whole thing may not be done yet.

    Bob Pinkowski
    Atlanta Reigon SCCA
    2001 ARRC Committee
    OPM Motorsports
    ITS Honda Prelude

    [This message has been edited by bobpink (edited September 26, 2001).]

  14. #14
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    I am a non-accord ITB driver and I also think the Accord guys got screwed..

    On the 'anything goes' board there is a thread regarding IT-7 to a similar end. The thread has moved into a frank discussion of comptition adjustments. I started it, but it could get a life of it's own. There is also a thread on voting for comp adj.

    just FYI, breeze over and add coments..

  15. #15
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    Bob,

    The last statement in your post got me thinking....

    ".... And this whole thing may not be done yet......"

    Is the reclassification of the Accord in any type of appeals process? Is there such a process?

    Since the car is still a ITB car (properly-classified) whos going to the ARRC this year with one?

    Once again.... what did this car do that warrented it be reclassified?? Who got so scared by this car?? I would like details if there are any.

    Good luck to the Accords at the ARRC!!!



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    I understand the re-classification will be reviewed, but don't hold your breath. Thanks Phil.

    There will probably be a few Accords at the ARRC this year and rumor has it that a scary fast driver may be behind the wheel of one. We'll know if this comes about when the entry list is posted. It won't be Fowler as he will be on his own mission in ITA. Maybe the last hurrah of the Accord in ITB will be a win at the ARRC.

    Don't have details about who from SCCA got the ball rolling on the Accord thing.

    Bob Pinkowski
    Atlanta Region SCCA
    2001 ARRC Committee
    OPM Motorpsorts
    ITS Honda Prelude

  17. #17
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    I think I heard that same rumor.

    [This message has been edited by RandallH (edited November 07, 2001).]

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    RandallH please contact me off list about the "cause" for the ITB Accord. This could be a very good thing and I would be keen to incorporate it into the ARRC.

    Bob Pinkowski
    [email protected]
    Atlanta Region SCCA
    2001 ARRC Committee
    OPM Motorpsorts
    ITS Honda Prelude

    [This message has been edited by bobpink (edited September 28, 2001).]

  19. #19
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    Seems like showing up at the ARRC and clobbering what is ostensibly the best field of B cars in the nation is the last thing that someone would want to do, if they are trying to make the case that the Accord should be in ITB. I have just two words of advice for these drivers--"bag" and "sand"!

    Kirk

  20. #20
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    Just for fun, I plunked the data for the Accord (hope I got the right one) into the "Miller Ratio" matrix, in both A and B. Remember that this is all mythical at this point but it makes an interesting conversation. I could also use the current IT and stock curb weights to add to the chart, if anyone has them handy...

    Take a look at http://www.people.virginia.edu/~krk5d/millerratio.html and let me know what you think.

    Kirk

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