Engine Rebuild

[Joe Murray]

This weekend I threw a rod through the block at Firebird Raceway in AZ. Parts and pieces everywhere. What would you guys recommend for engine rebuild? Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

This is my first season and I'm running in ITA w/ 1987 GTI 16v.
Thanks.

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ahondafor?

[joeg]

Just get a low mileage JY engine; maybe a couple.

Whetever you do, try not to use much out of the grenaded motor; throw away oil coolers and lines. You probably have lots of metal everywhere.

Cheers.

[racer_tim]

Joe, what caused the rod to leave? Spun a bearing? low oil pressure? Have you been able to tear apart it yet to determine what failed? Normally the VW rods are pretty robust. Next time use ARP rod bolts.

Do you have a baffle'd oil pan? Windage tray?

What RPM were you running when it left?

I've got a couple of 1.8 blocks / cranks / rods / but no 16v pistons. I'm using the only set that I have in my 8v LP motor.

Is the head still good?

Sorry to hear about your motor.

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Tim Linerud
San Francisco Region SCCA
#95 GP Wabbit (Bent)
http://linerud.myvnc.com/racing/index.html

[Joe Murray]

Tim,
I have not taking the motor apart yet. When the motor went I was in fourth about 7,000rpm getting ready to shift into fifth. No warning when it went. I had new valves and springs, from Autotech, ARP head bolts and the head resurfaced. The motor was running great! The motor was orignally prepared by Interprep so I think it was well built. I used a flash light to see in the hole of the block and it looks like the there is a windage tray, don't know about a baffle. Do I have to use stock rods or can I go with Carrillo's?

(joeg thanks for the advice!)


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ahondafor?

[joeg]

Stock Rods.

[Team Rocket]

I had a similar failure at Watkins Glen last season: #2 rod layin right there on the track (search the archives, the whole story is in there somewhere. It think the title was "Engine failure, what do you think?"). Don't be so quick to assume the rod was the primary failure. Mine turned out to be a piston failure at the wrist pin, the crown of the piston separated from the skirt which fell into the block, and that was that. All the rest of the damage was secondary. Most probably brought on by too little octane, too lean mixture and too much timing advance setting up detonation (in my case). It's worth it to take the engine apart to do an inpection to try and figure out what the root cause was. Do you see scorched bearing surfaces at the rod big ends? (Looks like the metal smeared and turned black). Can you find the rod bolts? Do they look like they stretched and snapped (tensile failure)? The failed bolt ends will look like stretched taffy. Or are they shear failure? Did the pistons come apart? Again, don't assume it was the rod itself. It's probably a good idea to bring the parts to a race shop and ask them if you don't have the experience.

(Bill, I've been THAT busy! And haven't been down to NY since we talked. But I still want to work something out with you for parts. Thanks).

Jim

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Jim
Black Rabbit Racing, #154

[SamITC85]

Joe,
I found a JY down here that had some 16v a couple of months ago. I can check tonight or tomorrow and let you know how much and all. Let me know if you need any help, and I still have that snowflake wheel and the gages for you if you stil want them.


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Sam Rolfe
TBR Motorsports
#85 ITC VW Rabbit
#85 GP Scirocco on the way
#11 GP Scirocco on the way

[Joe Murray]

I got most of the motor apart, it looks like it was the end bolt on the connecting rod on the number 4 piston/cyclinder. It looks like who ever rebuilt the motor reused the stock bolts. The one bolt is sheared off. I will try to attach a picture of the rod and piston. There is a hole in the front of the block about 12" long. The head still looks good, need to change out the intake side vavles they got pinged. I found a block.

So this is what I was thinking:
Carrillo rods (or stock?)
JE pistons
Total seal rings
Windage oil pan
MLS head gasket
16 lifters
Rod bearing set
Main bearing set
Timing belt
Timing tensioner
ARP main stud kit
8 intake vavles
Oil pump

any thoughts?
Thanks again for all the help!
(Sam I will send you an e-mail)


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ahondafor?

[racer14itc]

Originally posted by Joe Murray:
I got most of the motor apart, it looks like it was the end bolt on the connecting rod on the number 4 piston/cyclinder. It looks like who ever rebuilt the motor reused the stock bolts. The one bolt is sheared off. I will try to attach a picture of the rod and piston. There is a hole in the front of the block about 12" long. The head still looks good, need to change out the intake side vavles they got pinged. I found a block.

So this is what I was thinking:
Carrillo rods (or stock?)
JE pistons
Total seal rings
Windage oil pan
MLS head gasket
16 lifters
Rod bearing set
Main bearing set
Timing belt
Timing tensioner
ARP main stud kit
8 intake vavles
Oil pump

any thoughts?
Thanks again for all the help!
(Sam I will send you an e-mail)

You can forget about the Carillos, if you want to be legal. And I'll be REAL curious what JE charges you to make an EXACT replica of an OEM 16V piston, i.e. OEM weight, OEM dish, OEM ring package. I had a custom set of pistons made for my 1.6 ITC Scirocco by Arias back in the day, and they were NOT cheap. About twice what the OEM pistons cost.

Good luck with the rebuild! If you need any help, give my dad, Bob Coffin, a call. He's in Mesa, builds race engines for a living and has lots of experience with racing VW's (IT, prod and GT engines). ph. 480-964-4996

Mark Coffin
#14 GP VW Scirocco
http://pages.prodigy.net/scirocco14gp

[This message has been edited by racer14itc (edited February 18, 2004).]

[Eric Parham]

Too bad about the failure of the stock rod bolt. My first-ever rod "bolt" failure happened two years ago on my first trip to Pocono. Although I didn't build the motor, it did have the good ARP rod bolts in it as verified afterwards. The interesting thing was that one rod NUT must have loosened or completely failed, as one bolt was perfectly clean but without a nut, while the other was bent way over from the cap hinging opened. My *guess* is that the southeastern builder forgot to use a good thread-locking compound, but it's just a guess. I wonder if safety wire could have helped in that situation?

[racer_tim]

Eric, Saftety wire isn't a good alternative to "moving" parts. At least not at those RPM's. Either lock tite or actually "staking" them together, but then you'd have to replace everything anyway, so why waste the $$$'s on ARP hardware.

I've never had a rod failure, but I've spun the #3 rod bearing a couple times, before I got a baffled oil pan and a HD Melling oil pump.

[Team Rocket]

As for rods: BSI racing in Florida sells rebuilt rods (I have a set coming north right now!). Rebushed, ARP hardware and I believe they are shot peened, but I'm not sure. Give them a call. (required disclaimer: They don't sponsor me... dang).

Jim

[Eric Parham]

ARP rod bolts are all labelled, but only some nuts seem to be... Is this correct or do I have some fakes here?

[Joe Murray]

The motor is all back together and getting dynoed, hopefully tomorrow. I will let everyone know about the numbers soon.
I also have some pics of the motor and car
but don't know how to post them any help?(Bill?)

Side note: What are some feelings about making the front motor mount soild?
Thanks!

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ahondafor?