A1 hub failure

[Bill Miller]

C'mon Rick. This is not a case of stock parts being unsafe. If you treat and install the stock stuff properly, and change it out at reasonable intervals, there's no issue whatsoever. I know a Prod race that's got 3 seasons on a set of cryo-treated A1 hubs. And you certainly will see higher lateral loads w/ the slicks than w/ DOT tires.

This has nothing to do w/ being a 'rules nerd'. This has to do w/ flat out cheating, and then trying to justify it because it's a safety/reliability issue.

Don't get sucked in by the rhetoric. This is cheating, plain and simple. I have no desire to race w/ people who take this approach. And Chuck, I'll put you on notice here and now, if I'm ever racing against you, count on getting called to the tech shed!

I can't believe the unmitigated gall of someone that will essentially stand up and tell you that they're cheating and don't give a shit about the rules.

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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold)
SCCA 279608

[RSTPerformance]

I like Chucks idea...


I know several people who do conversions on the Audi's putting Porche suspension into them... I think that I will need to do that after all I have hub failures... also we have had brake failures in the past so maybe the BIG porche brakes would be legal, since that is a safety hazard... and wait those drum brakes on the rear... those don't work worth shit so that is a safety issue time to put on disk brakes...

In our AS car you can modify several things in the engine with exception the the crank... this means if you get max power out of the engine then after about 20 hours of use the crank brakes... It happens with every AS Mustang... This inevetably puts big holes in the block and oil under the tires... looks like we can change that now also...

Should I continue my list, or has my point been made???


Raymond "Not Impressed" Blethen

[racer14itc]

Apparently there are a lot more prod cars running around in IT than I realized!



Gotta agree with Bill on this one. Cheating is cheating, no matter how it is rationalized. If the rules don't say you can, then you can't! If something truly is a safety issue, petition the comp board for an exception (Olds Achieva rear hubs for example). Otherwise, do what the rest of us do: maintain the car on a regular basis and swap out LEGAL parts regularly.

MC

[Chuck Davis]

Bill,

You seemed a bit out of shape about my suggestion. Don't get to wacked out 'cuase if you were to make a semi complete inspection of IT cars at a given race weekend I can assure you that 75% would be in violation of the rules. My experience of many many years has shown that the rules winers are the most suspect.

[Chuck Davis]

Bill Miller

I spoke in haste regarding my last reply. I'm a very user friendly guy
With all the stuff that IT racers want changed the question is why don't they just do a Production car? With that in mind would you be in favor of reducing the age limit on IT cars to 1980 and implementing showroom stock rules. Then the whole thing becomes a matter of picking what you think is the best car for the job and making it purely a drivers contest. What 'ya think? The Comp Board would love it!

Chuck Davis

[OTLimit]

Do we have to have this discussion again?

Part of your car selection process should include a list of the deficiencies of the car. Duh. In this case, the spindle issues on the A1 cars is well documented and there are some less than legal "fixes." Please do not try to call every deficiency in a car a SAFETY ISSUE. It gets old, and I for one am tired of hearing it. Anything that you tell me is a safety issue and the "fix" increases the longevity of parts/assemblies immediately becomes suspect. The same reason you don't redline your motor on every shift.



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Lesley Albin
Over The Limit Racing
Blazen Golden Retrievers

[Bill Miller]

Chuck,

Don't try and change the subject. And 'a bit out of shape'? You're damn right I am. When somebody tries to tell me it's ok to cheat because it's a 'safety issue' and increases the longevity of the parts (not to be confused as being the same thing) and it's ok to cheat because 75% of the cars out there are cheating, I tend to get bent out of shape.

Based on your comments on this thread, I have no respect for you whatsoever. And, I will absolutely have you called to the tech shed if I'm at a race that you're in.

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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold)
SCCA 279608

[Bildon]

Just a note to those of your reading this who were considering racing, or are now too scared to race an A1 Rabbit.

We ran one for 5 years and never broke a hub. I think we changed them maybe twice. Synth grease, mongo torque and quality OEM parts...you'll be OK.



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Bill Sulouff - Bildon Motorsport
Volkswagen Racing Equipment
## 2002 ITB NYSRRC Champs ##

[Rick Phelps]

Originally posted by Bildon:
Just a note to those of your reading this who were considering racing, or are now too scared to race an A1 Rabbit.

We ran one for 5 years and never broke a hub. I think we changed them maybe twice. Synth grease, mongo torque and quality OEM parts...you'll be OK.
There are a lot of folks out there who will disagree strongly with you! Including those who have written a book or two.
Good luck, hope your crash will be a minor one! Not if, but when. I guess we could all get a couple of more races out of those old tires as well... but
Run those pads into the backing too. ...

[Chuck Davis]

Hi Bill,

I assume from your signature that the number below your name is your SCCA number. If so you're forgiven 'cause you're to young to understand.

Question. Did your Rabbit have a horn that was operational?

Chuck Davis

[RSTPerformance]

My Audi doesn't have an optional horn, but I think I am going to take it out... It is a safety hazard when I am trying to change the oil

Raymond " I think my Audi is a safety hazard" Blethen

After my post I realized that I havn't changed the ooil since last year.... Crap I need to do that!!!

[This message has been edited by RSTPerformance (edited June 17, 2003).]

[Bill Miller]

Chuck,

Again, you try and change the subject. And, it doesn't really matter when you joined the SCCA to know that cheating is cheating. Or did I miss that issue of the ITCS?

And yes, my car has a horn. It is not functional however, since I'm allowed to use any steering wheel, and the one I chose doesn't have a horn button. Don't see anything in the ITCS that requires the horn to be functional, just that it doesn't say I can remove it. And, since I'm allowed to use any steering wheel (except wood), that leave it open if I want a horn button or not.

Nice try!

BTW, it has a washer bottle too!

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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold)
SCCA 279608

[RSTPerformance]

Ok I am done with my sarcastic posts against Chuck... I think he gets the idea we are not impressed...

NOW TIME FOR A SERIOSE QUESTION...

Would running ducting (from a front air dam/spoiler) to the brakes and wheel hub area keep the hub cooler thus extending its life???

I know in the GCR it states that you can run ducting to the brakes, but doesn't say that you can run them to a "hub" however seems to me that it would be impossible to run it to the brakes and not also be pointed at the hub...

Just a thought??? What do you think.

(I am more interested in if this would help extend the life of the hub, rather than if it is 100% IT legal or not... In the back of my mind we are continually thinking of running production)

Raymond "trying to cool off" Blethen

[Greg Amy]

Raymond, the problem with the VW hubs is not heat, it's mechanical design. The hub has smaller shaft diameters and sharp radii which make it very susceptible to fatigue failure.

Think of it this way: as the car goes into a corner hard the hub is being fatigued, or flexed, just as you would when you are bending a coat hanger, except in the case of the hub it's happening through 360 degrees and not just in a single plane. A crack will inevitably develop in that sharp radius which quickly propagates into total failure of the shaft (hub).

This doesn't all happen in a millisecond; in fact if you were to remove and inspect the hub via magaflux or FPI after each weekend you'd probably catch the initial cracking well before hub failure. Howver, that's not economically feasible, as it's much cheaper to put your hubs on a replacement schedule based on cycles and hours.

Given that this is a problem only in extreme harsh environments like racing the design is quite sufficient for the street; street Rabbits go their entire lifetime without hub failure. But, as in all things racing, this is one case where the cost of regular replacement is far less than the cost of a single failure.

Greg

[LOBSTA1]

Hi All and I too Ran a 1981 itb rabbit on the west coast (burned up at Holtville injctor line broke) anyways I fully agree the hubs are a safty issue and I have seen them fail at the worst times!!! Not on us we would run six-eight weekends and then change them, german oe units, mega toqure then tighten till strip (almost) Sny grease and recheck all the time. Just m 2 cents thanks Glenn

[Mark LaBarre]

I re-pack mine with Mobil 1 synthetic grease, 175 Ft#'s torque and check re-torque EVERY time I check or torque the wheels. I replace them every 10 track day's or so and have had no problems. Even ran a year on a welded diff (2-wheeling through the corners) on a set of season old hubs and bearings.
Mark

[Eric Parham]

I worry about this type of failure, especially since I think I'm the only one I know who hasn't had it. I use the stock A1 hubs, but use a meatier nut (mid '90s 4-cyl style) so that I can put A LOT of torque on the hub. I believe that the meatier nut is IT compliant as replacement hardware. I generally stand (don't bounce) far enough out on the pipe to put 450 ft-lbs on the nut. It keeps the hub from failing, and the only things I've broken are the nuts (but they're inexpensive in comparison). That's what's been working for me, and I'm not that easy on equipment