1993 Golf III in ITB

[Ryan Williams]

Dear Bill & Bill: Having raced an A1 Rabbit for many years in ITC and now H-Production, I have a very good feel of the A1 suspension. I also drive a '95 VW Golf Sport on the street, and I am amazed at the amount of improvement made by VW with the A3 platform. Before getting the A3 Golf, I drove an A1 Rabbit (slightly modified). The A3 stock platform is so much better than the older platforms. I suspect with some fine tuning, the A3 would handle great. Regards, Ryan.

[JOESELLSVW]

I've already started on on a new A2 tub as a replacement for my current A2. I'm now thinking about sidelining this in favor of an A3 for next year. Haven't committed any serious money to the new tub.. just striped it out and tacked the sunroof after cutting out the frame. Most of the sound deadening is out. I want to use a Digi setup, but I like the idea of the A3 chassis. The landscape of ITB wil then hold three generations of Golf/GTI models. Pretty cool if you're a VW fan. It almost has the making of a GTI class? Old vs new, light vs heavy, what's everybody think? When will we know about the final decision on this? These cars are getting cheap... as you can tell by my name I sell cars for a living and have a special place in my heart (wallet too!) for VW's...JOE

[Knestis]

Grumble.

http://www.cars.com/search/used/cc/standar...f=kbb&src=&cid=

Grumble, grumble.

[Bill Miller]

So buy it Kirk. You can probably sell the airbags out of it and damn near pay for the car!

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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI
SCCA 279608

[lateapex911]

Simple question here. How much power is the A3 engine expected to produce in IT trim??? Kirk's chart looked like 125 Hp, but that chart probably doesn't apply here. If it's true, then what do you guys think the CRX is making that has made the A3 such a bad choice for ITA?

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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[Knestis]

121-125 HP at the wheels (per Jackson Racing). Bigger issue is that it weighs 200+ pounds less than the Golf (and most other stuff)...
K

EDIT - Ooh, bad thought. Now limited to 14x6" wheels rather than 14x7. Not that 7" wheels were easy to find or anything!

[This message has been edited by Knestis (edited January 31, 2003).]

[Bill Miller]

Kirk,

Most of the guys that I know that run ITA VWs use 14x6 wheels anyway. BTW, saw a '95 Golf Sport in the paper today for $2200. 5spd, 90k miles.

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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI
SCCA 279608

[Fastfred92]

I was the owner of the A3 in ITA that Jason Weaver now owns and yes it is leagl in ITA (93 -96) for last year. I also requested SCCA revise its class no less than 4 times and as those of you who saw fasttrack jan 03 can see it was turned down all 4 times. I sold the car to Jason after fully explaining to him that it is not a good ITA car but would be great in B and as a school car. Now it appears SCCA will reclassify. This is great because I have raced both A1, A2 and A3 and the chassis of the A3 is much better.. The reason that the A3 makes a bad ITA car is HP.... The Miata's and CRX both ( we dont even want to mention the 240 Nissan ) make over 130 hp at the wheels and my A3 would reach 109-112 with the legal mods. Plus a CRX, 240 or Miata have a huge areo advantage. The engine could be developed a bit more but as someone else said why? when you will never keep pace in ITA. If ( When ) SCCA agrees it will be in 04 and I would bet it will be the car to have in ITB.. I would like to have mine back!

[Ralf]

Originally posted by Fastfred92:
I was the owner of the A3 in ITA that Jason Weaver now owns and yes it is leagl in ITA (93 -96) for last year.

Was there a Fast Track change? I don't have a 2003 GCR so I'm going by what my 2002 GCR stated.




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Ralf
#53 ITB Golf GT
MiDiv

[Fastfred92]

it was addressed by fasttrack and I even confirmed with Aaron Coalwell early in 2002 myself while trying to get changes by the comp board. BTY SCCA had the following figures used to establish old SS classifications: A2 Golf was 20.96 lbs per hp and A3 Golf was 22.39 lbs per hp... kinda makes you wonder why A3 was in ITA to begin with?

[lateapex911]

If the 125 Hp is accurate, it yeilds a power to weight ratio of 18.8 for the A3. If the CRX does indeed make 130 WHP (I've been told by CRX guys that the figure is 120, but consider the source!), then the p/w ratio nets out at 16.46.

As a guy with a car that is theoretically at 19.83, I wonder, how come I'm not getting moved too?

Actually, I should be clearer. Why the A3? Or...why not the entire rest of the class that are clearly inferior.

When you start moving individual cars, and leaving others that are equal or worse, you open up an ugly can of worms. (No doubt cries of "favoritism" and "backroom politics" could be heard) Would bringing the cars that are the "spoilers" back to the fold be a better idea? (AKA, some form of adjustment to rectify improper initial weight setting)


Just a thought....
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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[This message has been edited by lateapex911 (edited February 04, 2003).]

[itbgti]

HP to weight ratio's are not the only thing to look at when classifying a car. There are plenty of other factors that will make/break a "fast" car.

I believe that this car should have never been placed in ITA, and the board is realizing it. This is not a change due to the car becoming uncompetitive over time; since day 1, the car should have never been there. It is going to be and should have always been a perfect fit for ITB. IMHO

Regards,
Alan

[Bill Miller]

Originally posted by itbgti:
HP to weight ratio's are not the only thing to look at when classifying a car. There are plenty of other factors that will make/break a "fast" car.

I believe that this car should have never been placed in ITA, and the board is realizing it. This is not a change due to the car becoming uncompetitive over time; since day 1, the car should have never been there. It is going to be and should have always been a perfect fit for ITB. IMHO

Regards,
Alan

Alan,

Believe me, I hear what you're saying. But, how do you tell a 1.7 ITB Rabbit that he's now got to race against a 2.0 ITB A3 w/ a better suspension geometry. It's bad enough they have to race against the A2 and A1 GTIs. If they're moving the A3 Golf to ITB, they should move the 1.7 Rabbit/Scirocco to ITC. You want to talk about a car that never had a chance where it was classed!



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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI
SCCA 279608

[Knestis]

And the '92-95 Civic DX (108hp) can go to B as well. By the time this all shakes out, the landscape might be very different. Best make hay while the sun shines, and get those requests in before inertia sets in again...

Kirk

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by itbgti:
HP to weight ratio's are not the only thing to look at when classifying a car. There are plenty of other factors that will make/break a "fast" car.

I believe that this car should have never been placed in ITA, and the board is realizing it. This is not a change due to the car becoming uncompetitive over time; since day 1, the car should have never been there. It is going to be and should have always been a perfect fit for ITB. IMHO

Regards,
Alan

True, but it's easy to do your passing on the straight, and not too tough to be wide in the corners. Cars with good p/w ratios often win races, and cars that handle win (sometimes) qualifying.

The point is, the car isn't
exactly a backmarker in ITA. What will all those guys who got whipped by an A3 (and there were plenty) have to say? Can you blame them?


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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[itbgti]

Great Topic!!!

Bill- Agreed, the 1.7 has NO chance of ever winning a B race...the A1/A2 GTI's alone place the 1.7 at the back of the pack. Maybe this one should be moved to ITC, I do not have enough knowledge on it to say a Yes/No.

Jake- I see your point, and no, I could not blame people for being upset about something like moving the A3 to ITB. However, anything that is done, there were always be a group who disagrees. Heck, if there wasn't, we could call this UtopianSCCA. I still strongly feel that moving the A3 to ITB will make for some GREAT racing. With all cars, you will have some A3s that are fast, some that are midpack, and some that are slow. Drivers and prep levels will assist in determining that. By adding the A3 to ITB, you are not destroying the class, just adding to it...the A3 will not be dominate, I think the A2's will be able to keep up, A1's will stay in the mix, Volvo's will have no problem with this, McMahon and the Opel will still win, BMW 318 should still hang, Audi's will do just fine...This change will not prompt everyone to ditch there car and build an A3, it will just be another option.

Regards,
Alan

[Fastfred92]

I must agree with Alan,.. the A3 will be a good B car but dont expect it to crush the field ( E36 / ITS like ) As I said, I ran a A3 in ITA last year and turned lap times that would put me in the the top 3 or 4 of the B field most weeks but still got passed by the Volvos on long straights and a heck of a time keeping up with a hot A2 GTI. The only notable advantage I saw was in brake zones, the A3 really stops well. With the time and development that the A2 has had ( and aftermarket parts support) the A3 will be a winner but remember as every year passes, SCCA will class newer / faster cars in IT.

[Bill Miller]

I'll just throw this out for fun. Anybody got A3 Golf times comparted to an Accord at the same track??

(crawls quietly away to watch from a safe distance)

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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI
SCCA 279608

[lateapex911]

Sure, Bill, you HAD to ask! I was going to throw that one in the mix but thought ...."nooooooooo don't go there"!

The Pandoras box has officially been opened.

Here in the NE, I think the Accord which you refer to does well for himself, but relative to ITA, it's obvious that the car is not a front runner. (No offense, Peter!...I'm not either!) The one late model GTI that runs at LRP has the Accord pretty well covered.



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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[Bill Miller]

Sorry Jake, just had to do it.

BTW, I still want to know where that 'full developed' [sic] A3 Golf is!

(Looks at Kirk and says, "You know, this stick-poking thing can be fun.")

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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI
SCCA 279608