VW forged steel pistons?

[Harry]

Did some Scirocco's come stock with forged steel pistons?
Harry

[Jimbo70]

Forged steel? Are you sure you don't mean forged aluminum?

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James Altemus
Nor'easter
ITB Golf

[Scirocco#28]

I'm not aware of any that came with stock forged. The only ones that I think are forged are g60 pistons??? Anyone else?

Steve

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88 ITB Scirocco
www.geocities.com/highspeedconnectionracing

[Harry]

Souldn't have said "steel". I meant forged aluminum. Just curious, because I saw an ad for a ITC VW Sirrocco and the ad said it had Aries forged pistons in it.
Harry

[racer14itc]

Harry,

Nothing in the rules that says you can't use forged pistons, as long as they're dimensionally the same and weigh the same. They do. And they're stronger than the cast OEM pistons.

MC

[Bildon]

Harry,
I think you mean Arias pistons. They are still available.



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Bill Sulouff - Bildon Motorsport Volkswagen Racing Equipment

[Harry]

MC,
Nothing in the ITCS says you can or can't use forged pistons or forged in lieu of cast. It does say : "Factory oversize replacement pistons or their EXACT equivalent shall be used." FORGED isn't exactly CAST? If it's stronger than cast that makes it better than equivlent if the factory pistons were cast.
Please don't get me wrong. I'd love to be able use forged in lieu of cast pistons. So much so that I welcome your interpretation of the rule so I can feel comfortable about doing the same.
I discussed with them (SCCA) when they outlawed coatings that the main advantage from coatings was increased durability and they said that the extra durability provided me with an advantage over my competitors.
If you go by the next sentence in the ITCS it states "Equvilent pistons shall have the same (same shape, same weight and compression etc. and it ends with) as factory replacement oversize pistons." A forging will weight more than a casting in the same size & configuration because of the molecular grain density.
Bill,
Your right I can't spell. Is the use of forged pistons to replace cast ones widely accepted?
Thanks,
Harry

[racer14itc]

Harry,

The rule says "Equivalent pistons shall provide the same dome/dish/valve relief configuration, ring thickness and spacing, pin height relationship, weight, and compression ratio as the factory replacement oversize pistons." The forged pistons are equivalent as defined by the rules.

My ITC pistons meet every one of the requirements listed. Unlike some of the other discussions currently on this site, I'd feel very confident that if protested I would be vindicated on this one. The pistons do meet the letter of the rules 100%.

Mark Coffin

P.S. Haven't you heard of invisible thermal barrier coatings?

P.P.S. I carried large Airborn Coatings decals on my car for the last three years. Don't you think that got people wondering??? Of course that just distracted them from wondering what was underneath the vinyl roof...

[Harry]

Mark,
I disagree with you, but understand and respect how you have arrived at your interpretation. I wish I could agree with you. I'm going to check and see what Topeka has to say before I buy a set of forged pistons. Good luck on your GP effort.
Harry

[Bildon]

The rules state that factory oversize or "equivalent" may be used. It then immediately defines "equivalent" with a list of criteria I won't waste time retyping here.

Installing forged pistons is no different to me than replacing your windshield with an aftermarket one that looks, weighs and fits the same...even though it may be made with a completely different process.

Forged pistons are still aluminum pistons afterall. And if they truly meet the definition of "equivalent" there is no advantage that I'm aware of in using them in an IT engine.

Stock VW engines (IT) don't need the strength that a forged piston can afford. Oversize OEM pistons are readily available and I'm not sure you could get as good a seal with the skirt clearance needed for forged pistons.

So why not just get the cast anyway. I know the forged are shiny

To answer you question...I know that forged pistons a very popular as replacements with other makes, but for VWs the expense isn't worth due to the points made above.

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Bill Sulouff - Bildon Motorsport Volkswagen Racing Equipment

[This message has been edited by Bildon (edited February 28, 2002).]

[Harry]

Bill,
You left out one key word "EXACT". That's the word that makes me unsure. I hope you can see it from my point of view. It doesn't say "ANY ignition or ANY clutch disc and pressure plate. It says Exact Equivlent.

Pistons for my 30 year old car are in short supply. I'd welcome a new source for pistons. I feel there are advantages to using forged 2618-T61 aluminum pistons.

The ITCS states:
"Equivlent pistons shall provide the same dome/dish/valve relief configuration, ring thickness and spacing, pin height relationship, weight and compression ratio as factory replacement oversize pistons"
Your interpretation is that as long as it meets the above statement it's ok if it's different in other ways. such as stainless grade, full floating pin, taper, skirt style and size etc. etc.
It sure leaves a lot of room for some improvments over a factory standard cast piston. Just decreasing the size/area of skirt and the design features to the skirt can make improvements in friction. Other improvements such as stainless grade, full floating pin, taper, etc. etc.

It's late got to go,

Harry

[mogren]

Forged has been legal from day one. Still are. All of those Volvos that turn 8k have forged pistons and weird valve springs.
Stock VW pistons are fine under 8k You will run out of air well before you bust a piston.MM

[Bildon]

>>All of those Volvos that turn 8k have forged pistons and weird valve springs.

You ain't kiddin! The Volvos used to bust springs every session. But strangely that doesn't happen anymore. Hmmmmmmmmm



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Bill Sulouff - Bildon Motorsport Volkswagen Racing Equipment

[mogren]

We used to buy 4 boxes of springs and take the best. Now they have some that dont break. Luckey for us most break somthin else. MM

[Harry]

I had to ask them and their reply was "forged pistons are different than cast pistons." If your engine came stock with cast pistons then you must use cast pistons. Exact is: "without variation; precise" I'm sticking with what have until this one gets challenged.
Harry

[RSTPerformance]

The rule says "Equivalent pistons shall provide the same dome/dish/valve relief configuration, ring thickness and spacing, pin height relationship, weight, and compression ratio as the factory replacement oversize pistons."

What if your car does not have oversized factory replacment pistons, but an aftermarket company Does make them?? I also know where I can have the pistons made if needed.
My problem is that there is No Factory Pistons made that are 40 over. (20 over and 60 over only) 40 over is the extent of the rule and 20 over is a waist of money at $100 each.

Stephen

[This message has been edited by RSTPerformance (edited March 21, 2002).]

[JohnRW]

I had this very same discussion will Jim Leithauser in Denver about 4 years ago, who was then the Club Racing tech guru (Sven Pruett is the current guru).

When I told him that another competitor had questioned my use of forged pistons, he laughed and said "as long as they're dimensionally the same - deck height, # of ring grooves, same top shape, etc., - then they're legal."

We can debate this forever - just call Sven and ask him. And it's a toll-free number.

[racer14itc]

[G60Jetta2dr]

Originally posted by Scirocco#28:
I'm not aware of any that came with stock forged. The only ones that I think are forged are g60 pistons??? Anyone else?

Steve

Stock G60 pistons are cast not forged.

I'm a G60 nut. The only forged pistons in the VAG inventory are Audi 5000 7.8 to 1 compression pistons.

Llew