Fuel cell install

[Mark LaBarre]

Has any one installed a fuel cell in their VW? I'm curious if the fuel pump develops enough suction to lift fuel out of the cell or if another pump needs to be used as well.
Thanks!

[Ryan Williams]

The VW CIS fuel pump does not draw gas very well. When I installed a fuel cell in my G-Production Wabbit, I installed a Carter low-pressure pump (4 to 6 psi) to draw the fuel from the cell. From the Carter pump, the gas passes through a Fram filter to a small surge tank. This surge tank has three fittings on top and one fitting on the bottom. The first top fitting receives gas from the Fram filter; the second top fitting receives the "passby" gas from the CIS Metering Unit; and the third fitting is an overflow return to the fuel cell. The bottom fitting on the surge tank feeds the input to the VW CIS pump. With this arrangement, the VW CIS pump and accumulator work as normal. To meet the SCCA rules, the fuel cell must be contained in a steel or aluminum box held, preferrably, by a steel cradle. There must a be "firewall" between the driver and the fuel cell. In my case, I fabricated a light-weight steel box with a top over the fuel cell and its container. The top is fastened to the "firewall" box with screws. In the center of top, a flip lid allows access to the cap of the fuel cell. If my discription of my pumping system sounds confusing to you, please send your "snail" mail address to [email protected], and I will mail a hardcopy of it to you. Regards.

[Jay Frye]

Originally posted by Ryan Williams:
The VW CIS fuel pump does not draw gas very well. When I installed a fuel cell in my G-Production Wabbit, I installed a Carter low-pressure pump (4 to 6 psi) to draw the fuel from the cell. From the Carter pump, the gas passes through a Fram filter to a small surge tank. This surge tank has three fittings on top and one fitting on the bottom. The first top fitting receives gas from the Fram filter; the second top fitting receives the "passby" gas from the CIS Metering Unit; and the third fitting is an overflow return to the fuel cell. The bottom fitting on the surge tank feeds the input to the VW CIS pump. With this arrangement, the VW CIS pump and accumulator work as normal. To meet the SCCA rules, the fuel cell must be contained in a steel or aluminum box held, preferrably, by a steel cradle. There must a be "firewall" between the driver and the fuel cell. In my case, I fabricated a light-weight steel box with a top over the fuel cell and its container. The top is fastened to the "firewall" box with screws. In the center of top, a flip lid allows access to the cap of the fuel cell. If my discription of my pumping system sounds confusing to you, please send your "snail" mail address to [email protected], and I will mail a hardcopy of it to you. Regards.

Walt Pucket makes these through his firm Delta Group. Or you can buy them from Tom Fowler @OPM

[Bill Miller]

You don't just need these for a car (VW) w/ a cell in it. Having an surge tank is a good idea. If it weren't such a good idea, why did VW adopt it in later cars (Fox, etc.)? BTW, I think the surge tank from the Fox works well.

[metalworker]

Just be careful. At one time a surge tank was considered illegal

[MikeM]

Hi, I hope someone can answer this question, I am ready to invest in a new fuel delivery system for my 86 GTI 8 valve. I have a fuel safe cell with a surge tank inside(collector), and need to replace everything from the cell to the fuel distributor. The choices as I understand them are: replace all the factory equipment(fuel res, pump, accumulator, lines) or use a (Walbro)high pressure pump, fuel regulator, filter and 6AN braided lines to feed and return the fuel. Both setups are expensive and I don't feel comfortable spending the ~$350.00 when I don't know if it will work properly. Any suggestions on who I might need to talk to? Thanks

[This message has been edited by MikeM (edited February 15, 2001).]

[Bildon]

Mike,
Once you go the fuel cell route your kinda committed to the complete expense of doing it right. It's very common to have fuel pickup problems once you remove the stock tank and system.

My advice if you have not already removed it would be to utilize the stock GTI setup. It's poly like the Fuelsafe, has a built in surge tank and has low and high pressure Bosch pumps already. It's identical to a common race setup. The only thing different is that there is not a steel box around the cell. But it's up over the axle and so it's protected pretty well. It is a flawless system.

Get new pumps and retain the steel lines to the engine bay. You can get a HP pump for about $150 and the LP pump for <$40.




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Bill Sulouff - Bildon Motorsport
Volkswagen Racing Equipment
www.bildon.com

[MikeM]

Bill, My stock pump and accumulator are savable but the rest(poly fuel res, the mounts and lines are shot. The plastic stock fuel lines were cut off by the previous owner. Are you suggesting drawing fuel from the cell with a low pressure pump, and connect that to the stock setup just as the factory tank was and use new factory fuel lines? Thanks

[Bildon]

Yes, Junk yards are an IT racer's best friend

You are confusing me a bit with your descriptions however. You should have:
A) Fuel Tank (Polyethylene)
Low pressure pump (inside tank's access panel)
C) Surge Tank (black plastic box with
D) High pressure pump inside it.
E) Plastic and rubber lines to front.

Is this your current setup? Are the tank mounts or the Surge tank/pump mounts shot?

- Bill

[MikeM]

Bill, I have:
A) Fuel Tank (Polyethylene)
Tank is disconnected, soon to be removed.

Low pressure pump (inside tank's access panel)
Still in the tank.

C) Surge Tank (black plastic box with
mounts broken.

D) High pressure pump inside it.
Can be reused.

E) Plastic and rubber lines to front.
lines damaged and not usable.

F) small can connected in between fuel pump and fuel filter(accumulator?) looks reusable.

Additional Stuff:
15 gal sportsman fuel safe mounted in a steel can on rear seat floor. Fuel Safe optional surge tank(in cell) with one way valves to trap fuel. Two 6AN fittings on cell one feeding from fuel safe "surge tank" and the other for return.

I was told that with this "surge tank" in the cell that I could run a High pressure pump directly from the cell without pickup problems, although I don't think the source had ever done it on a VW. Thanks




[This message has been edited by MikeM (edited February 15, 2001).]

[Bildon]

Mike, that "small can" is your filter. Replace it. You can loose a lot of pressure there.

The surge tank with HP pump can be tie wrapped up to the old mounts. Mine is.


Now about the race cell....
15 gal!? You racin' to china?

To do it right you really want a LP and HP pumps. In fact you want 2 of both switched separately for redundency.

Email me and I'll send you a diagram and pictures of how to do it right.

PS - On a Golf I'd still stick with the stock tank. They really are maintenence free and will not starve for fuel at all until the tank is bone dry. My .02

- Bill

[Bildon]

Weird, my email isn't displaying here: [email protected]



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Bill Sulouff - Bildon Motorsport
Volkswagen Racing Equipment
www.bildon.com

[Bill Miller]

Hey Bill (Bildon), do you know if an A3 GTI has the same LP/HP setup in the tank? We've parted out a '95 GTI VR6, and are just getting ready to junk the shell. It still has the gas tank in it. I never even thought about looking there for the stuff.

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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI

[John Herman]

Where is the surge tank located on the GTI's. This seems like it might fix a problem of mine. What kind of pressure and volume does the HP pump put out?

[racerjake]

I currently have a car with a fuel cell. Two low pressure pumps and one high pressure pump which feeds from a reservoir. I was having problems at Road Atlanta which I thought were electrical but I have just found that the low pressure pumps are failing. They are faucet pumps which I was told after the fact they were not my best choice for pumps. WHich low pressure pumps should I put on the car. Internal or external is fine with me. If I go with internal will I need to make any modifications to the cell?

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racerjake

[Ryan Williams]

I use an external Carter low pressure, and it seems to work well. For more details, please read my previous post in this series.

[Mark LaBarre]

I've talked to denver recently, and the resevoir or external surge tank is not provided for in the rules. I suppose if it was FIA rated it could be called a fuel cell, but then you would have 2. This was not good as I was just about to do that very thing when I install my cell.
Mark

[racerjake]

Ryan,
DO you know the specifics on the pump? MOdel # size and fuel flow. Currently I have two low pressure pumps(that are failing at the same time) and since I have a race this coming weekend I need to get this done. I wish I would of discovered what the real problem was earlier.
Thanks

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racerjake

[Ryan Williams]

I don't have the literature on the Carter pump here at the house, it must be at the shop. However, the Carter low pressure pump has a pressure rating of 5 to 6 psi and is normually used on carb applications such as big block ford and chevy. The pump will accept pipe thread AN fittings, and I installed AN lines throughout the primary fuel system. If the pressure is too much for your application, you can install an adjustable fuel pressure regulator. In my GP Wabbit production application, I use the Carter to feed a reservior that subsequently feeds the VW CIS high pressure pump. The reservior has an overflow line back to the fuel cell so I am not concerned about the pressure and output of the pump, as the reservior is always full. To protect the Carter pump, I installed a Fram fuel filter prior to the pump. I probably will not get to the shop until next Tuesday if you really need the details. Sorry I don't have the pump specs at the house. Another source of information is Walt Puckett ([email protected]) who has a race prep shop and races VWs. Tell Walt that I referred you to him. Regards, Ryan.

[This message has been edited by Ryan Williams (edited March 25, 2001).]

[Bill Miller]

Mark,

That's interesting re: the surge tank and the rules. I know several people that run these, and I was going to put one in my car. I guess I should find out about the legaility first.

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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI