What a shame.....

[Bill Miller]

Jake,

I've been a strong supporter of increased safety gear in ANY car that goes on the track, for a long time. The incident that really drove it home for me, was many years ago at Bridgehampton. It was a joint COM/EMRA HPDE/TT. I was flagging at station 4. My partner and I watched this Scirocco come down the hill, lap after lap, and he was pretty squirrely every time. One lap, we could tell by the time that he was half way down the hill, that he wasn't going to make it. Dropped 2 wheels off driver's left, tried to catch the car, hooked it back across the track, backwards, and went up the hill and slammed into a tree, dead center in the back.

The driver had a 5-pt harness, that had the shoulder belts mounted to the floor, directly behind the seat. The car folded up, at the B-pillar, so much, that all 4 wheels wouldn't touch the ground at the same time anymore. The driver had his spine compressed (from the fact that the belts held him pinned down in the seat). They took him to Southhampton hospital, and from there, flew him to Stonybrook for emergency surgery on his back.

I don't know what ever happened to the guy, but from that point on, I was a big supporter of requiring properly installed safety gear in all cars that went on the track, not just race cars. The response that I was met w/ from the club administration was that "if we require all that, we won't get as many people to show up". I'll let you draw your own conclusions as to how to interpret that. That was when I quit instructing for TT's.

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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[Greg Amy]

I'm with Jake. I instruct with several HPDE groups, primarily the Audi club. The performance of some of these machines is absolutely mind-blowing. Got a soft spot for the late-60's/early 70's muscle cars? Fuggedaboutit. They can't hold a candle to the capabilities of an Audi RS6, a C5/6 Corvette, or a BMW M5.

The real problem, as Jake pointed out, is that you cannot correlate vehicle performance to skill level any more than you can stop a Novice SCCA driver from showing up to his first school in a brand-new Toyota Atlantic. Therefore, the responsibilty truly relies on the instructor to INSTRUCT and to reign in the driver when it's demanded. There have been several times when I've "grounded" students because their attitude and expectations far exceeded their abilities and vehicle. I do that primarily for self-preservation, but it would crush me to see a student of mine go out there and hurt him/herself because I was not doing my job.

The Audi Club is taking some (token) measures to curb the madness. While you cannot stop the newbie from showing up in an RS6, they are requiring non-solo students to show up in insured and registered cars while prohibiting "R-compound" tires. Further, they are culling out the instructor pool to those that have experience or demonstrated skills. Once the students get their solo signoff they can run R-compound tires ("but why" for an HPDE, I always ask myself) and instructors can run any car they want, registered or not.

Finally, note that these are non-competitive education events. Any sort of timing devices are COMPLETELY illegal and will get you tossed out of the event immediately.

Again, though, it all comes down to that nut behind the wheel, and unless these groups increase their self-policing the situation will escalate to where they can no longer get insurance. That'll put the kibosh on it right quick... GA

[zracre]

i have sent my share of students home for brain fade and driving over their ability. The point is to see a student making the fatal errors lap after lap and correcting him in real time...not after a session watching him from the sidelines...what if you cant see him make a mistake 5 times in a row on a corner you cant see? People are bringing ungodly fast cars to track days with no prior track experience...I dont let students go unless I would be comfortable circulating the track with them and seeing how they handle themselves in traffic and high risk situations. A driver in a one seater or full on race car with proper safety equipment is a different thing all together than a 997 twin turbo with a newbie pulling the trigger. Peoples attitudes change when someone is in the car watching and tend to learn more than scaring themselves silly alone on a racetrack. Im all for instructors doing exactly that...instructing.

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Evan Darling
ITA Integra

[JIgou]

For the record, I read somewhere (of course I don't remember specifically where) that the Audi driver in question, while indeed in the "beginner" group, had done events before and had driven several sessions with an instructor that day/weekend. He had been signed off to go solo at some point before the accident occurred.

Jarrod

[bldn10]

Several people have mentioned the desirability of cages and 5-point harnesses and I don't disagree. However- I'm not a physician or physicist but, from what I understand of these kinds of injuries, neither would have saved this guy. Indeed, the more solidly you are planted to the seat, the more the forces on your neck. The air bag, which I assume was disabled for the event, might have saved him, or a H&N device. Now, if he hit his head on the wheel, that's different - a harness might have saved him. FWIW I think that requiring either harnesses, cages, or H&N devices would be the end of PDEs at the casual beginner level.

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Bill Denton
87/89 ITS RX-7
02 Audi TT225QC
95 Tahoe
Memphis

[gsbaker]

I spoke Tuesday with the Doctor who received the driver's remains at the ER. After convincing him that I know the difference between the foramen magnum and the occipital condyles, he confided the details of the injuries, which, out of respect for the deceased, I won't convey here.

Because there is no autopsy we will never know what happened, but it is safe to say that many things went wrong--or at least could have been better.

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Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com

[Mattberg]

I really don't think this is a matter of head restraints. These guys are gong to die no matter what you do given the current organzing activities and rules. This is a matter of responsibility. These HPDE events put cars and people in danger. I would be willing to bet the mortality/injury rate per entry is significantly larger than that of any real racing organization. They put cars not designed or intended to do something in a position to exceed their performance and safety parameters.

I was asked a few years ago to manage the instruction for one of these organizations. At the first event I was to work (a paid position btw), after reviewing all of the particpant information, I told the organizer that we could not allow some of the participants to run. One was a first timer in a competition 935 Turbo. Sorry, it's waaaaay too much car for a first timer. Second was a BMW convertible with "factory roll-over protection". Sorry. Saw one collapse like an accordian at Grattan a few years back and the driver would have been surely killed if not for a matter of inches of "luck". Third was an exotic kit car with a V-8, first time driver and no cage or other saftey devices. Last was a completely stock (no belts) Austin Healy with a cheap single two point attachment roll bar. Two deaths at Willow Springs in the same setup last year pretty much confirms that one.

I was vetoed on all counts and promptly resigned. It was all a matter of money and I would have nothing to do with it. Put track time for anybody with the cash on the table where profit is the motivation for organizers and people are going to get hurt. Add ego and irresponsible uneducated driving and you get a multiple of ten. You know the type..."Got it up to 150 on the turnpike the other day".

I see a guy in a t-shirt and open face helmet driving a full blown GT-1 car and I cringe but that's something you'll see at some of these events. A fatal accident at Topeka last year clearly illustrates that full safety gear should be required for any purpose built racecar. HPDE organizers really don't care as long as your check clears.

[mgyip]

Originally posted by bldn10:
FWIW I think that requiring either harnesses, cages, or H&N devices would be the end of PDEs at the casual beginner level.

I'll probably stick my foot in my mouth by responding but A) I'm good at it and I like the taste...

I don't disagree that having a car that's partially race-prepped just to attend a PDE will limit the casual entrant but at the same time, with the capabilities of today's cars, that kind of equipment is almost mandatory to keep everyone safe. I'm surprised at the number of PDE attendees who want a harness bar to stay planted in the seat but don't want a roll bar b/c it would detract from the car's appearance without ever considering the benefits.

The biggest issue with PDEs, poor instructors aside, is that the cars are significantly more capable than cars built even 10 years ago. As a result, a student can get over his/her head so quickly that even a good instructor won't be able to save them. Perhaps all PDEs should be held with school-provided cars that are so slow that no one can possibly get hurt - maybe there is a future for the General Li...

Haz-Matt

[mgyip]

Originally posted by Mattberg:
I was vetoed on all counts and promptly resigned. It was all a matter of money and I would have nothing to do with it. Put track time for anybody with the cash on the table where profit is the motivation for organizers and people are going to get hurt. Add ego and irresponsible uneducated driving and you get a multiple of ten. You know the type..."Got it up to 150 on the turnpike the other day".

You've hit the nail squarely on the head for many DE-style events - it's all about turning a profit. No organizer wants to turn away a paying customer b/c they're stupid or otherwise unsafe which is one of my greatest concerns. With racing, the tech folks work separately but under the direction of the Steward who has NO FINANCIAL OBLIGATIONS TO THE EVENT. As a result, Tech can make unbiased decisions regarding safety rather than making decisions based on "just one more car to make the event a blockbuster".

However as noted previously, no matter what measures are taken to ensure safe equipment, there is no easy measure to ensure that the loose nut behind the wheel has any driving ability or even a modicum of intelligence. I suggest dual control cars with an electro-shock button to bring the bone-head driver back to reality

[zracre]

I think many of us used track days to learn that we wanted to go racing...start autocrossing then go to track days etc etc...I decided track days were far to dangerous in my 5.0 with t-tops. Many of the people getting into the sport now have the disposable income to just go buy a supercar and take the fastest route to going fast...Track days are a great thing if instructed properly and all safety equipment is scrutinized carefully. Of course many events are run with $$ in mind, but no self respecting instructor I know doesnt look at the vehicle of a newcomer carefully before he/she gets in. An instructor should also drive the car first to evaluate if the car is track worthy as well. It is easy to send someone home safely, but it is also easy to make big mistakes letting something slide. Instructors make track days what they are and what they can be.

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Evan Darling
ITA Integra

[mgyip]

Originally posted by zracre:
Instructors make track days what they are and what they can be.

Very true - some of the larger marque clubs are starting to develop programs to nationally certify their instructors. This includes teaching instructors what they should be teaching and how they should be implementing it - think "Train the Trainer" for you corporate drones. These clubs are going so far as to require instructor-trainees to ride with certified (or certifyable, depending on your perspective) instructors to ensure that the trainees not only understand the material but are also able to convey their points to a student.

Unfortunately the student that met his end at the Glen was at the track with one of the Clubs that is implementing an Instructor program which only goes to prove that even with the best planning, bad things can and will happen. I certainly feel for the instructor but as we've all said and read "Motorsports (and drivers education events for that matter) are dangerous. You may be seriously injured or killed".

Haz-Matt

[whenry]

This discussion reminds me why I do not feel safe on the lakes around my home. Your ability to go fast on the water(a very hard substance at speed) is limited only by your imagination and credit rating. The Holiday weekends are the worst but any weekend will cause carnage. And the boating culture encourages BWI!
My personal favorite are the guys who forget to winch the anchor into the boat and take off full steam down river; wanna guess what happens? Usually the guy at the rear of the boat loses his head when the anchor catches up with the boat and trust me, it will.
While I continue to believe that we are safer on track than on the interstate or towing to an event, we must demand that racing be constantly evaluated and new safety procedures be added to protect us from ourselves.

[KevSC1]

Originally posted by mgyip@Aug 4 2005, 04:38 PM
I'm surprised at the number of PDE attendees who want a harness bar to stay planted in the seat but don't want a roll bar b/c it would detract from the car's appearance without ever considering the benefits.

The benefit is that people leave you alone on the street

My DD has a full cage ( bolt in, got a great deal), and sees a handful of track events a year. I get LOTS of funny looks when people realize that the purple people eater has a cage. Only one guy has tried to race me since I put in the cage - and I laughed at him, and let him go roaring off into the night.

[theenico]

Originally posted by Mattberg@Aug 4 2005, 11:30 AM
A fatal accident at Topeka last year clearly illustrates that full safety gear should be required for any purpose built racecar. HPDE organizers really don't care as long as your check clears.

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The car in that accident was a full blown racecar running in GT2. The incident happened during the Saturday regional race.

[Mattberg]

Originally posted by theenico@Aug 10 2005, 01:16 PM
The car in that accident was a full blown racecar running in GT2. The incident happened during the Saturday regional race.

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That was my point. Tragically, Mr. Pistole lost his life due to his injuries despite having all the required safety items. Imagine a 90 degree afternoon and a 60 year old man with a history of heart trouble, driving a full blown racecar in a t-shirt, an ill-fitting outdated open face helmet, jeans, nylon tennis shoes (for those whove ever been burned by melting nylon, you know what I'm talking about) without socks and no anti-submarine belt. Crash survivability is diminished ten fold. Like I said, go to an HPDE and you'll probably see something like this.

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by Mattberg@Aug 12 2005, 09:52 PM
That was my point. Tragically, Mr. Pistole lost his life due to his injuries despite having all the required safety items. Imagine a 90 degree afternoon and a 60 year old man with a history of heart trouble, driving a full blown racecar in a t-shirt, an ill-fitting outdated open face helmet, jeans, nylon tennis shoes (for those whove ever been burned by melting nylon, you know what I'm talking about) without socks and no anti-submarine belt. Crash survivability is diminished ten fold. Like I said, go to an HPDE and you'll probably see something like this.

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Matt, lets be clear here. IS that what this gentleman was dressed in??? What, exactly caused the incident, and his death. Conciseness and confirmed facts will be most appropriate.

(And no, I'm not raining on a more safety gear is better parade, but I *do* think that there needs to be a reasonable administration of preparation.)

[jc836]

Racing is plain dangerous-but safer than the street statistically IMO.
As to PDE/HPDE events, they are a great opportunity to teach and learn driving skills. I agree that proper safety gear is needed even in a street car. Then again the car itself needs to be prepared more carefully than a simple "state inspection" will require. Most students I have come in contact with come to the track with some idea that brakes and tires are critical. Safety gear ranges from the absolutely bare minimum to brand new full competition setups. It is true that much will depend on ones wallet.
As to Helmets-we are moving toward mandatory full-face. Personally, I happen to like my Bell MAG 4, but will retire it at some point. H&N restraints or at least a collar should be part of ones package-at least for the instructors. Why-it sets a positive example when a student sees that the teacher is equipping him/herself properly for the activity.

Attitudes are something that we all see both on street and track. I had the opportunity to instruct 4 different people at Pocono. Two had cars with the potential to go 150, while the other 2 had turboed street cars. I had more concerns with one of the turbos because of his attitude than his ability to follow the line. He was also not as receptive to instruction as his goal was to be signed off. Didn't happen for him. The other turbo driver was asked to reduce the boost and quickly discovered that he could learn more and be smoother. The first 2 cars were driven by people who truly wanted to be better (NSX and kit car). They asked for and got instruction that helped them achieve their goals for the day. Another attitude issue is the question of $$$-covered by others here.

We all mourn the loss of a fellow driver. Skill level and equipment do play a role. Good instructors know how to get a student to a high point that is still relatively safe. I have taken instruction from several people who knew exactly how to get the best out of me. It left a very good feeling and one where I knew that I was not over my head.
Maybe this should also be part of our responsibility and focus.

Just my thoughts.