What a shame.....

[philstireservice]

http://forums.audiworld.com/s4/msgs/2069695.phtml


there needs to be more attention paid to H&N restraints in these HPDE's !!!!

------------------
Phil Phillips
#49 PhilsTireService.com EP Acura Integra GSR

www.philstireservice.com

[gsbaker]

We know it's bad when we check site traffic Monday morning and see it's 50 times normal.

------------------
Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com

[Knestis]

The great question of which systems work without "proper" driver restraints comes up in that strand. I'm going to add that to the list of "issues to be addressed" at www.headrestraint.org

K

[Greg Amy]

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">...which systems work without \"proper\" driver restraints...</font>

The Wright Device is the perfect answer to this question, but as of right now I don't know what the future holds for it. After an appropriate amount of time I plan to contact Caroline to find out if she will be continuing Jay's work, or if someone else will pick up the ball. - GA

[gsbaker]

Originally posted by GregAmy:
The Wright Device is the perfect answer to this question, but as of right now I don't know what the future holds for it. After an appropriate amount of time I plan to contact Caroline to find out if she will be continuing Jay's work, or if someone else will pick up the ball. - GA

Greg,

That is a very good point. A lot (most?) of DE drivers are out there with standard 3-point belts, and we presently have nothing to offer that market.

I'd have to get the OK, but, offhand, I see no reason why Isaac, LLC couldn't offer Jay's design for Caroline. A portion of the proceeds going to a research fund in Jay's memory, or as a donation to headrestraint.org, might also be appropriate.

Just a thought. I'd hate to see the idea get dropped.

------------------
Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com

[Greg Amy]

I love it.

Gregg, please contact me offline, grega at pobox dot com. I don't know Caroline personally, but I have traded emails with her subsequent to Jay's death. I'd like to see if we can't pursue this idea... GA

[Jiveslug]

This reminds me why Ive always sworn to never hit the track, even for track days, without at least a roll cage, helmet, harness, and fire extinguisher on board. I feel for this man's family and hope that some good can come from this, even if it just makes one driver more aware of his or her safety. There is always going to be risk involved in racing, and its important that we all understand that (not that Im saying the driver or the instructors did anything wrong, its just one of those unfortunate things that happens). Remember, the threat of death, according to Hemingway, is what makes auto racing (bull fighting and mountain climbing too) a sport. Everything else is just a game. Be safe everyone.

[Speed Raycer]

Gregg... you and your company continue to amaze and impress me!

------------------
Scott Rhea
It's not what you build...
it's how you build it

Izzy's Custom Cages

[gsbaker]

Greg,

You've got mail.

------------------
Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com

[gsbaker]

Originally posted by Jiveslug:
This reminds me why Ive always sworn to never hit the track, even for track days, without at least a roll cage, helmet, harness, and fire extinguisher on board...

It's very difficult marketing to the DE crowd--product designs aside. They all believe that they are safe because they aren't racing. And if you point out that tires go down, spindles break and deer run across the track regardless of what the event is called, you are labelled a fear-mongering capitalist. Then someone gets hurt, your inventory gets sucked off the shelf and everyone complains they have to wait for product.

Isn't this fun.

------------------
Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com

[gsbaker]

Scott,

Every now and then we get it right.

------------------
Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com

[planet6racing]

Guys:

Do we even know if and H&N would have made a difference in this case? The single biggest killer in these auto events is a heart attack. And, judging by this guys age, I'd say there's a good bet that it may have played a factor...

------------------
Bill
Planet 6 Racing
bill (at) planet6racing (dot) com

[dave parker]

Greg and group,
When I used to run our track store at Summit Point I would chat with all the people that came in. I would often have discussions with people about the safety aspect of Driver's Education events (DE). Many times I would be told " oh its okay, we are not racing." I would always remind these people what one of my first Friday at the Track (FATT) instructors (Bill Davis) said to me, "Don't put any car out on the track that you cannot afford to lose. Also remember, this is motorsports, you can get hurt or killed or worse." I have carried this simple lesson with me throughout my motorsports adventures.
I have said this to DE people that were in our track store asking about "stuff".
I have even had some of those same DE people come to me in the track store and say " Hey stop talking about crashing cars and getting hurt, my wife is standing over there in the corner and that is the last thing that she needs to hear." I was absolutely amazed. My response to these gentlemen was simple, you need to tell your wife the truth, that motorsports are dangerous and you can get hurt or killed most of the time through no fault of your own. If the risk is unacceptable to her or you cannot be honest with yourself about the risk perhaps other sports beckon you to join.

I do not like to see anyone get injured (or worse) in our little motorsports world. I do advocate requiring more properly installed and used safety equipment, even for cars just doing DE's. Most modern (and some not so modern) cars are capable of serious speed and injury potential right off the showroom floor.
People need to think about what they are getting involved in and not hide thier heads in the sand thinking that bad stuff only happens to the "other guy".

We are all the "other guy" at one time or another.
cheers
"dangerous" dave parker
wdcr ITC#97

[Bill Miller]

Gregg,

I have to echo what Scott said, you guys are top shelf!

Bill makes a valid point. I was speaking w/ a fellow racer about this yesterday, and he had heard speculation that the crash may have been incidental, and that the driver may have suffered a heart attack prior to it. This is pure speculation, and I don't want to start any rumors, so please take the comment in that light.

That all being said, it is an absolute tragedy.

------------------
MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[Jiveslug]

Originally posted by gsbaker:
It's very difficult marketing to the DE crowd--product designs aside. They all believe that they are safe because they aren't racing. And if you point out that tires go down, spindles break and deer run across the track regardless of what the event is called, you are labelled a fear-mongering capitalist. Then someone gets hurt, your inventory gets sucked off the shelf and everyone complains they have to wait for product.

Isn't this fun.

Heh, I see your point. Before I got married I was in that category of driver as well. Its not that I was any more kamikaze than your average racer, but that I really had the feeling that it would never happen to me. Part of that came from the fact that I didnt have anyone depending on me. Now that I have a wife, that is no longer the case. I also lost my mother this year and she was 57 years old and in perfect health six months before she died. It had a profound impact on how I look at things. I dont want my wife or anyone in my family to have to experience the horrible sense of loss and helplessness that comes from having a loved one taken from you unexpectedly....

[shwah]

My condolences to the drivers family. How horribly unexpected I imagine this was for them...

I have a bad feeling that we will continue to see more of this as the popularity of HPDEs or track days increases. More drivers with less experience in faster cars - which are so damn easy to get without even trying, just drop by your local dealership for a 400hp + machine.

I personaly came to a point not all that long ago, that I decided it was absolutely not worth it to drive on the track in a 'high power' street car. It was one thing to teach my wife high performance driving in a 94whp, 2500lb, 8v GTI street car, you can only get going so fast. But I look at some of the hardware that comes out to our local club track days and shake my head thinking about the speed potential and how much higher the stakes are for mistake or component failure.

I know that there are still a million other things that could go wrong, including one of those fast cars hitting my car (if we are on the track with them), but having a slower car naturally reduces the potential for disaster, and allows me to really play with the car without throwing so much kinetic energy around.

If it is a 'fast' car I won't drive it that way without harnesses, cage, fire bottle and head/neck protection. Don't know why it took me so long to get this, but at least I do now, rather than after an incident.

Chris

[lateapex911]

I think there has been a revisiting of an old legend of late...the "911 Turbo into the wall backward" legend. It held that in the first year or two of sales of the 911 turbo in the states, that half were sold in California, and half of those were wrecked backwards into walls, etc.

We have seen a diproportionate number of Porsche Carrera GTs being wrecked in similar fashion...far out of line with the miles these cars are being driven.

It points to the issues brought up above, that the ability to easily procure a machine that can get you in trouble in a very short order has become very common...lots of people can get a very high performance car and not pay the usual price for it.

In the past, cars of high performance potential carried a price of difficult to master clutches, loud interiors, peaky engines, unmanagable torque/traction, rough ride, or a host of other "reminders" that there was a coiled beast just waiting to strike beneath your feet.

But many of todays cars carry exceptional performance while remaining utterly docile and refined. As an instructor I have ridden around amazed at the speed, but really amazed at the lack of "impressiveness" of it...which was impressive in itself.

Trouble is, when it all goes wrong, there's is an unmanageble mass of intertia looking to hit something. And sometimes the immovable object is close to the track (relative to the speed potential of the car)and the stopping is severe. An example is the recent Carrera GT crash at Clifornia Speedway that killed both occupants, after the car struck a concrete barrier after leaving the track at over (reports say) 165 MPH.

The driver and passenger were young, successful family men, wearing the mandated helmets and stock 3 point seatbelts.

In a car with provisions for 5 point harnesses, it seems tragic that there weren't 5 point harnesses required, among other things.

The writer of the Audi thread pointed out how it was odd that this occured in the beginers run group...but I am not sure if that holds...there was no comment about a passenger.

Nevertheless, I agree (esp after my incident two weeks ago,) that the increased safety gear needs to be mandated, despite the possible barrier more gear will present to a newbie.

An option might be that any diver may enter without the full on 5 point etc, but must have an instructor and must keep below a certain speed...I know some clubs have a similar system currently in place, but I don't believe that it has been directly tied to safety gear levels.


Gregg, I think this highlights, (again) a real open spot in the market place for a product, and I really applaud your concept. Again, I wonder sometimes if Isaac is an autoracing watchdog, or is a money making business...Iit seems like you've been able to do a bit of both.


------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[zracre]

I can't imagine a club that would let drivers out on their own without an instructor strapped in next to them (unless it is a race car with the appropriate gear). I understand that this was a beginner level driver?

------------------
Evan Darling
ITA Integra

[tderonne]

What is someone supposed to do about an impending incident from the passenger seat? Sounds like a good way to kill two people instead.

And how does any amount of skill bend the laws of physics? This could have just have easliy happened to a very experienced driver who hit a spot of oil or something.



[This message has been edited by tderonne (edited August 03, 2005).]

[John Herman]

Good point Tim. Though I have ridden in several cars at HPDE at tracks I know well, I never get real comfortable. I can't feel the brake pedal to know that they are beginning to fade, or when the person turns in way too early with too much speed can I reach over and grab the wheel. I prefer to coach people on the low speed parade laps, where I'm, and I'm guessing the driver, is more comfortable and relaxed and will/can listen to what I say.