New requirements for rookies PRIOR to participating in a SCC

[jc836]

There is a reality that we must consider here-previous experience at the PDE level. There are those of us with a great deal of seat time on specific tracks. That is a good thing to have as an instructor. Being able to communicate with your students about the track is a key to a successful outcome.

I had a student at Pocono who claimed a lot of experience at Lime Rock. These are 2 very different tracks. Pocono can and is driven at speeds in excess of 130 by some people. This particular driver used his turbo to excess and would not back off when told to. He failed to follow my instructions. His level of agression was way too high for a PDE. I was about to bring him in when the engine decided to go limp due to an air duct falling off. He was not on track again that day.
By comparison, the son of a Viper owner was on track in a turboed Nissan and wanted as much instruction as possible. I finally convinced him that disabling or at least reducing the boost would be very helpful-he agreed and proceeded to run some great (smooth) laps. Neither driver is truly ready to run on a high speed track. The latter is going to do fine because he has the right attitude and support of his father.

As to applying experience, I agree with Emwavey that some sort of personal log is appropriate. I would then add what is required at Indy-observation by instructors/seasoned drivers and then a sign off if appropriate. Do this before a licensing school and one will discover who is ready to go forward. I said earlier that adding layers is not a good thing in and of itself. We already have them. Someone simply needs to refine what is there.
More food for thought.


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Grandpa's toys-modded suspensions and a few other tweaks
'89 CRX Si-SCCA ITA #99
'03 Dodge Dakota Club Cab V8-Patriot Blue gonna tow

[Mike Spencer]

Originally posted by Jiveslug:
...Maybe a good compromise would be to have the SCCA discount the driving school for those people who have taken some other classes (such as my McKeever 1 day school) or other motorsport experience. That might provide some incentive, at least...

OK, just to be clear about my "point of view", I am almost 50 years old and only competed in a couple of auto-X events about 20 years ago. I went to the Roebling Double Drivers School this past February and had an absolute ball!

It probably didn't hurt that I am racing a car that is the slowest in my group (IT-7), but there was a 16-year-old kid driving a GT-1 Monte Carlo. It was classified as SPO, but it was a GT-1 car just the same. He did fine! I don't know what his "prior experience was", except that he probably did some roundy-round stuff.

My point here is that I had a great instructor, a great chief instructor and tons of track time. There were people that didn't pass. That sucks, but they probably didn't deserve to.

If SCCA makes good decisions on all their students (don't worry, I'm old enough to realize that's not realistic but it's a good goal) there won't be a problem.

As far as "discounting the drivers' school" as indicated above, they already do. There is a place on your application for prior experience. I don't have it in front of me, but I really don't believe it says "prior SCCA experience".

In a nutshell, I don't believe the system is perfect, but I also don't believe it's broken beyond repair.

MHO!

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Mike Spencer
NC Region
ITA/7 RX-7 #60
1990 RX-7 Convertible (street car)

I think there would be less problems if there were a Steward appointed to act as a liason between the SOM's, Chief Steward, corner workers and the Chief Instructor.
Many novices can "fly under the radar" for their 4 probationary races to obtain a Regional license and then as soon as the Chief Steward signs off on their novice permit, things can change drastically.

Many of the larger classes, especially SM and SSM seems to have more than their share of "bonzai" moves, metal to metal contact, and just general mayhem especially on the first lap of nearly all the races I've seen at SP lately. If the corner workers miss an incident, it goes unnoticed by the Stewards and novices can have many small incidents without gaining the attention of the Stewards.

Novices ought to be watched closely during their probationary races, and incidents ought to be brought to the attention of not only the SOM's, but also the Chief Instructor. Perhaps a sit down chat with the SOM's and Chief Instructor would do more to remind the offenders that this is supposed to be a non-contact sport as much as possible.

The rules in place are fine, it's the lack of follow-up once the novice is out on the track for the first couple of races during their probation that should be changed. Perhaps all the regions ought to have another group meeting off all the novices before their books get signed off just as a reminder of their duty to others on the track to race in as safe a manner as possible.

[Jake]

I know some regions do it already, but I would suggest that the GCR require all rookie drivers have a big X on their car. At least while on their novice permit - perhaps longer. Not only does that give others the heads up to watch out, but it also changes the tone when a rookie does something wrong. Maybe instead of getting trashed on this forum, the "wronged" competitor could give them some constructive "mentoring" in person. Hey we were all rookies once.

[gran racing]

The “X” is a great thing for novices to have on their car. I don’t understand why this isn’t a requirement for the first few races. It would tell me not to take a pass where it requires a fair amount of trust on both parties to make. Hmmm. Do you think if I show up with a big X on my car people will be nice and not pass me this weekend?

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Dave Gran
NER ITB #13
'87 Honda Prelude si

[JamesB]

I think I am going to make everyones life easy and put one of those maryland Rookie Driver stickers on the back window for my first season.

[emwavey]

I have an "X" on my car in three places. I thought it was there to indicate where I preferred to be hit.

I plan on keeping those blue, racer-taped "X"s on my car for the remainder of this year and will most likely leave them on there for the beginning of next.

I've learned a ton during the first two races at VIR (signed off for a regional BTW ) I also have a list of mistakes and things I could do to improve performance, safety and judgement. I was fortunate to have folks in the paddock area, Matt, Sean, Bill Jr & Sr, Gregg, etc, offer me insight on driving line and racecraft at the event.

This is where I'm learning how much Club Racing is as much, if not more so, about friendships.

... This is also a big reason why I'm excited about the SCCA getting into track days. I would have loved to have had folks in my home region teach me how to race. I'm familiar with both their personalities and their talents. I also think it makes the transition into road racing easier knowing folks before-hand. A more comfortable and relaxed driver is a safer driver. IMO.



Man I really want to go to the Glen...

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-dave
nerdsracing.com
8)

[This message has been edited by emwavey (edited July 07, 2005).]

[This message has been edited by emwavey (edited July 14, 2005).]

[MMiskoe]

Having been an instructor for both HDPE events & SCCA schools I'll stand on the soap box for a minute.

There is too much to learn in a weekend to expect any venue to take a person to the track for the first time ever and expect them to be ready to go wheel to wheel in an well subscribed race. Fact of the sport.

Therefore would it be a bad thing for regions holding race schools to print in their "getting started info" the fact that a day (or several) in an HDPE that offers 1 on 1 in car instruction would be highly recommended?? Also include links to clubs offering this that are in the same area as the school. Seems that everyone wins - SCCA gets a better result from their schools, the new driver gets a "more well rounded education" and the associated clubs might pick up a new member who is actually better suited to them than SCCA.

Having instruction that continues after the novice book gets signed is also important. As an instructor at an SCCA school, then a driver the next day at the race, I don't have time to watch my students in the race. After that it is very difficult for most people to provide constructive criticism to a fellow driver. If you offer advice to somene about how to drive better it implies that they haven't been doing it right - this is a tough way to introduce yourself.

Perhaps the 2 races that a novice needs for sign-off should include input from the others in the race group. Something like a Rookie wears a novice stripe or X, drivers are expected to help this poor schlep through his first season. Hopefully the rookie realizes how much he has learned along the way, makes new friends and will be willing to offer opinions to the next guy. May take a couple of generations of new drivers through to make it self perpetuate though.

There are also some inherent problems with the wording in the GCR. Read the requirements carefully & you will see that after the proper # of hours have been logged, it is protestable that the book must be signed regardless of if the guy is ready. Conversly if a previous F1 world champion lets his Super License lapse then shows up for a school but doesn't get in the correct # of hours, it is difficult for the cheif steward to sign the book w/o going against what the GCR requires. Its written pretty black & white that a book will not be signed before a certain number of hours and will be signed after those hours - nothing about if the driver has what they need.

[BUMPnGO]

I've been a Driver Instructor in CFR SCCA on and off for 10 years. In that time, I only had to send one idiot home and another one just quit (with encouragement). My overall experience has been very good with the CFR "system". Driver Schools are cheap, give you tons of seat time and free instruction from the guys you'll be racing against. What confuses me is these guys will spend a ton of money getting into the sport, but 75% of of the them are gone after a year or so.

[Jake]

Originally posted by gran racing:
Hmmm. Do you think if I show up with a big X on my car people will be nice and not pass me this weekend?

LOL!! I gotta try that. BTW, for those who haven't seen this (and don't mind downloading a 20mb file) relive how horrible it can be to be a rookie.

http://www.specmiatavideos.com/Compilation...iwasseventh.wmv

[gran racing]

Wow that was a huge race field. That looks like it would be a blast! (minus the grid issue.)

It is an interesting statement when people say that incorporating HPDEs (or similar) would make it tougher and more expensive to get into the sport. Does it really? Or in a way does it make it cheaper? Instead of the newbie seeing the initial cost being around X thousand dollars to race SCCA, it can now cost ~ $250 to get one-on-one instruction while in their streetcar in a safe environment. Then they can slowly build or look for a good car to buy suitable for club racing while getting out on the track, learning a ton, and most importantly having fun.

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Dave Gran
NER ITB #13
'87 Honda Prelude si

[Wayne]

Originally posted by Jake:

LOL!! I gotta try that. BTW, for those who haven't seen this (and don't mind downloading a 20mb file) relive how horrible it can be to be a rookie.

http://www.specmiatavideos.com/Compilation...iwasseventh.wmv

That video deserves a thread of its own. That just absolutely made my day, what a total riot!

[mlytle]

that video has many threads of it's own already....it has been around for years, but it seemed to have hit the net recently and is all over all the car forums i haunt.

i see lots of repeated comments about how hpde's would add too much to the cost of getting into racing. i dare say if you can't afford to do a few driving schools before getting to a comp school, you sure as heck will not be able to afford to actually race if you get signed off... racing is expensive. ain't no way around that. money spent on hpde's in a street car is a far better investment that getting
a new suspension for that car you are going to race someday.

and the heck with the cost to the new driver, what about the cost to those racers "around" that newly signed off driver? even though i was giving them wide berths, i almost got taken out several times this weekend at summit by spec miata's with rookie stripes on them. clueless is being nice.

the concept of driving fast needs to be learned BEFORE learning the concept of driving fast near other cars. we should not hold down the "cost of entry into the sport" at the expense of safety.

Marshall, that's exactly why I think there should be at least one person in a Stewards position that should keep an eye on the ones with rookie stripes and be responsible for having those rookies who make mistakes receive a little "follow-up coaching" from either their own instructor who had them at school, the regions Chief Instructor, or one of the other SOM's, before their novice permit is signed off.
In the heat of a race, especially in a large field like SM, rookies will often make mistakes and they are never called on some of their smaller mistakes that could be a hazard to others if no one complains, and you can't complain to the SOM's about every little thing you see on the track as a driver. There ought to be someone you can report smaller incidents to that has the authority to go to the party and have a short conversation with them about their indiscretions with out having to file protests against them to bring them to the attention of a Steward, especially if the actions on the track do not warrant a protest, just a reminder that they are out there to race in a safe manner.

[mlytle]

i am with you!

my first comp school instructor kind of followed me for my first year of racing. it was great. he watched as many races as he could and gave me all kind of good hints and points. went well beyond the school instructor role to kind of a mentor role. helped a lot and i think i stayed out of trouble...

bmwcca assigns volunteer seasoned drivers to all novices on a weekend basis. walk them through not only the race weekend process, but also some coaching. seems to be a good program.

maybe the run group stewards and the class drivers reps can be the conduits of rookie feedback to the chief steward?

[zracre]

Exactly...simply assigning an instructor to watch over a newbie until the novice permit is signed off is a step in the right direction...and as 2Many Z's stated a steward there just watching the novice drivers would help clear up any issues a troubled novice would have...there is no shame being a rookie...they call boris said a rookie in nascar...


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Evan Darling
ITA Integra

[Wayne]

[quote]Originally posted by mlytle:
[B] even though i was giving them wide berths, i almost got taken out several times this weekend at summit by spec miata's with rookie stripes on them. clueless is being nice.

So, did you do something about it? Did you go over and talk FACE to FACE with the driver to give them some pointers?

As you know SCCA is a self-policed system for the most part. Yet I continually talk to drivers who refuse to go over and talk to the "offending" driver face to face. They just bitch about this driver doing this or that, but they don't want to confront them, or help them.

I've been racing with SCCA for 7 years now and this phenomenon still perplexes me. Yes, talking about long-term improvements to the school programs is fine and dandy, and may improve the crop of new drivers... but rookies (and veterans) will still make mistakes.

In a self-policing system you must get involved to effect changes. That means get involved at the local level and at the time an incident happens, as well as long-term improvement planning.

Wayne

[mlytle]

i would have if i had any idea who they were. "miata with rookie stripes" doesn't help much in a field of 30+ cars that all look alike. camera wasn't running during those sessions. taking the video over and reviewing it together to discuss what happened is the best way to approach.

[MadFrog]

There is something that some of you have touched but not expanded upon.
I did a fair number of HPDEs before my schools. By the time i got to the school, I knew car control, proper lines (mostly anyway), flags, basic race day structure.
The 2 SCCA schools taught me the finer points of the SCCA procedure, how to drive in the snow and gave me a (too) small taste of racecraft.
I had good instructors throughout, but what i am learning now is that I really have no effing clue how to pass a driver that is only slightly slower than me.
Passing in the SCCA school may be a good "taste" of it, but let's face it, there is a huge difference in drivers ability and cars, and we all tended to be very courteous about letting others by if they looked faster (who wants to ball up their car at a school?)
Now, fast forward a couple of months and here I am at Summit with my rookie stripes, and I can't figure out how to pass those ITB cars. I should have a horsepower advantage, but they are good enough drivers that they can negate that for now.
I tried the obvious outbrake into turn one and ended up eating some dirt Lesson learned.
Anyway, my (long winded) point is that no matter how many HPDEs you do, you won't learn racecraft, and chances are you won't learn much of it at the SCCA school either. Only track time in a race with similar cars and drivers (that won't nicely let you by just because you caught up with them) will teach you the skills you need to be a successful racer.

JMHO.

[mlytle]

you summed it up perfectly. the hpde's got you the car control, flags, basic procedures before the scca school. that allowed you to concentrate during the school on getting to the next level. now that you are "out in the world" you have the basics down and are fast enough that you can work on the finer points of racing.

now imagine where you would be if you had skipped all those hpde's to save money for racing...