New requirements for rookies PRIOR to participating in a SCC

[gran racing]

I’ve often thought a requirement to participate in a minimum number of accredited HPDEs, professional driving schools or time trials should be a requirement before a person could go to the next step in racing. The minimum number would be dependant upon the school type and of course the individual driver. I understand that every driver needs to be signed off at a license school, but that is not enough. Before I’ve thought that SCCA would never go for the idea because it did not have HPDE / track days designed how to drive a track, but now it does. There are simply too many things for rookies to be learning and for a huge majority of people it just is not possible to gain the needed experience at the licensing school. If you look around the paddock at the people most say to watch out for and don’t have control of their cars, they are often the ones who jumped to club racing too quickly. It is said so often but is so true – seat time is extremely important not only to be quick but also to be safe.

I look back to the first session I was on the track and my instructor told me not to forget to look in my mirrors and flaggers often. I couldn’t help but think screw you, I’ve got way too many things going on right now. Over the past few years I’ve been on the other side instructing at HPDEs and quickly learned that feeling is very commonplace. I can’t even imagine if I were out on the track in a school or racing with very little seat time. For that matter even after several HPDEs where I was one of the faster guys in my HPDE run group and then getting my competition license, being out on the track during a qualifying session / race was pretty crazy stuff.

I’m curious to get your thoughts about SCCA implementing a similar policy. I understand there is much more to this but wanted to start the general dialogue.

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Dave Gran
NER ITB #13
'87 Honda Prelude si

[Knestis]

I understand the concept but the only way to implement it within the organization, culture, and liability environment of SCCA would be to create an entirely new, additional layer of requirements to the process.

These would have to be strictly specified and - of course - would have to be SCCA-provided. There's NO way that a "pick three" or "if you've done this, then this is required" solution would fly.

Really (and this sounds like old fart talk), you don't know how good we have it now. When I did my RE-licensing school last winter at Roebling, the level of car control was amazingly high. Pretty much everyone there had P-club, BMW, NASA HPDE, or other on-track training.

When I did my first school in 1986, this was most assuredly NOT the case. The Alfa club and BMWCCA had track days but they didn't have nearly the number of events or participants as are available now. There were people in that old-school school who had never been to a race track before they showed up.

K

[Ron Earp]

As with anything, a lot of it will come down to the student and his/her maturity and dedication AND how active his or her instructor is with the learning process.

I went to school at CMP in Feburary and before then had never been in a race car, only to a few BMW track days. I had a well prepared car, a good instructor, and paid attention. I learned a lot, met a lot of fantastic people and in the end I was the fastest SM at the school over the weekend and consistent with my driving with no contact. Most of that had to do with my instructor, Jeff Young coaching me, and a group of mature folks that have a lot of respect for the club and sport. The weekend was mainly trouble free with only one student "getting in trouble" for antics and "poor" driving. In fact, I saw no contact, just a couple of minor offs that didn't cause anyone trouble.

The club wants to raise new drivers with a respect for the sport and I think the SCCA can do that on its' own without external HPDE. Sure, it is a lot to do in a weekend, but with smaller schools (compare CMP in Feb with Roebling in March) it is very doable. Maybe the answer is smaller SCCA schools.

Having more "things to accomplish" before coming to school would certainly limit student enrollment. It is quite a task to secure a car, all the equipment, time, money, etc. to attend a race school. Add in HPDE's and the price goes through the roof.

Two fellows, Sean and Neil, in our school scraped up cash, bought a old RX7 IT7 car, and attened the CMP school with me. They had a rented Uhaul for car carrying and the bare minimum of stuff to get to school. But, they got through and they got through safely - largely due to their attitude, instructor, and dedication. If there had been HPDE schools that were maditory before getting to school, well, maybe we'd be seeing them in a few years?

The club needs new racers - it'd be nice to see some 25 or 30 year olds racing (I'm well past that now) in SCCA WITHOUT being born into a racing family. Add in more hurdles and I think the only think you'll accomplish will be to increase the average age of an SCCA driver - and it is already high.

R

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Ron Earp
NC Region
Ford Lightning
RF GT40 Replica
White Jensen-Healey ITS
Silver "Skull" 260Z ITS
Email: "rlearp at gt40s.com"

[This message has been edited by rlearp (edited July 05, 2005).]

[This message has been edited by rlearp (edited July 05, 2005).]

[This message has been edited by rlearp (edited July 06, 2005).]

[RSTPerformance]

Dave-

While I think your idea of having better drivers on the track is a good one, I think that your Idea of more requirements prior to a driver school will never work. (Take this as constructive criticism...)

We should be trying to recruit more drivers to SCCA not push them away, adding more hurdles making it tougher will definately push people away, I know being someone in my mid 20’s having lots of friends want to get into it but can’t afford it. Not to mention it would make us look more like snobs than we already do (sorry to say it, but many other clubs/drivers look at us that way). In the Northeast SCCA regions are lucky that their isn't to many competing clubs that can offer what the SCCA has.

Now to offer what I think should be the solution to the problem... Make our driving schools more demanding. Hold the students to a higher level. Current Drivers (many who are on this site) are the ones signing off the drivers to race. Someone told me when I was in the school, they are not looking to see how fast you are they are looking to see if they would feel safe racing with you. That should still be the requirement today, and maybe we need to remind our instructors of that...

Scary as it is (and I am not bashing NER here, as most/98% of the instructors are awesome, and I think that they as a whole put on as good a school as anyone could possibly do, kudos to them), but I do have to say at the NER School last April I think 2 of the worst drivers on the track were instructors. (I didn't know these drivers were instructors till after I made a comment to someone).

Our schools are what we make of them, so Dave join in the fun and volunteer to help run the school and/or instruct next spring!!!

I could go on and on, but I am sleepy, and I still need to reply how my weekend was at Mid Ohio in the other forum!!!

Raymond “Just IMO” Blethen

[This message has been edited by RSTPerformance (edited July 05, 2005).]

[zracre]

I think it all boils down to the instructors and their ability to qualify letting a driver go race when they are not ready. I am amazed at times after coming back from track days, to see the things people do in a regional...the best way to keep good drivers out there is to put back to the sport and insruct...if a student balls up his car in his second school or hits everyone in sight, they should not pass...there should be a contact rule at schools to help people learn you cant just bash your way to the front...I have seen many IT and SM races where this is the case (we as racers dont always set the best examples). Case in point...go to the specmiatavideos.com and watch the "I was 7th" video....C'mon dude, passing 63 cars before the green flag because you screwed up your grid position and were sent to the back (even if for some reason it wasnt your fault), and expect the stewards to sign you off??? putting self and others at risk...

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Evan Darling
ITA Integra

[This message has been edited by zracre (edited July 05, 2005).]

[Knestis]

Raymond and Evan bring up a great point: It is necesary that school stewards believe that they CAN fail someone. In the current "I'm the customer" atmosphere of amateur motorsports, this might be hard sometimes.

K

[jc836]

I am inclined to go with the idea that stepping stones are a good thing. Having done my share of HPDE and other types of events, I find that students at that level are very willing to learn. With the fundamental elements in place w2w driving can come more easily.
It is also important to consider autocross, karting events and oval track schools. These events in addition to accredited SCCA type schools can be the foundation to a person moving up. The younger we can teach a person the fewer things to unlearn.
I found that students run the gamit at HPDE and some are simply at a level where they can drive but do not take instruction well. This will always happen. Then there are the students who can drive but insist on having an instructor to be more at ease with themselves. It took some effort to explain to one that he was more than ready to solo.

Do we need/want more layers? I think not. I am suggesting a natural progression as one becomes more affluent. No form of motor racing event is cheap. One must be prepared to spend or not get involved as a driver/car owner.
Just a few thought s from Grandpa-who returned to the seat after a very long absense and had the sense to ask for instructors and classroom time to reacquaint himself.

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Grandpa's toys-modded suspensions and a few other tweaks
'89 CRX Si-SCCA ITA #99
'03 Dodge Dakota Club Cab V8-Patriot Blue gonna tow

[dickita15]

kirk is right if the instuctors have the right additude the system works. I signed of an a guy in may on his 5th school. If you had asked me at lunch time I would have said that he was not going to make it but we changed our approach based on his needs and we got great results. i was paddocked next to him for his first race and he did great. not fast but someone I do not mind being on the track with.
sometime you have a OSB student and you have to tell them. OSB = other sports beckon

dave can I put you on the instructor list for the April school

dick patullo

[mgyip]

While the concept is great, I agree that unless SCCA sanctioned non-competition HPDEs (think NASA) that such a concept isn't workable. Such an HPDE program would be more effort than is currently expended on Club Racing since the turnout would be greater due to the lack of a licensing requirement.

I can forsee a voluminous and politically charged "Instruction Qualifications and Teaching Methodology" program that would probably exclude half of the current licensed racers for various and sundry reasons. This would coincide with HPDE stewarding program, the HPDE registration program and the HPDE F&C program.

While it would be nice to "keep it within SCCA", that's not necessarily realistic either. Some folks like to herd by marque (think PCA or BMWCCA) and enjoy being the big fish in a little pond. When they enter SCCA, they become a small fish in a big pond that's full of different cars where they can't "shine" as readily.

As was mentioned, SCCA is very much a natural progression for drivers who start out in HPDEs or marque clubs. As the drivers improve, they build dedicated track cars and look for a greater challenge than just driving around a track alone. Some of the marque clubs offer racing but with marque-specific rules that (IMHO) provide a class for every car and a car for every class so that everyone's a winner - in other words, it ain't racing but more like really fast parade laps with some passing.

[emwavey]

I agree with Kirk, that the SCCA would probably need complete control over what would be considered a legit track day and what skills a driver would need to possess in order to be considered "signed off".

I also think that a "strong suggestion" is a good idea and can be done on a regional level. Driver's experience can be reviewed upon registration. Might this already be the case?

Perhaps it was because I knew people involved with the SCCA before I joined, but I always considered an SCCA regional racing school to be more of a test then a driving school. It's a racing school that assumes you know how to drive already. Not having a passenger seat in the race car is another hint to that feeling. And I always wondered why the SCCA didn't host its own track days.

Finally the SCCA has restructured their High Performance Car Control Clinic (HPCCC) to the new PDE (Performance Driving Experience). This may be a new thing, but one way the SCCA could completely control what constitutes a driver being signed off. However regions may have difficulty in hosting events if for no other reason then scheduling. I could see the SCCA going the route of NASA in the not too distant future.

If for no other reason, it has to be much more enjoyable for a student to have at least some track time before hitting an SCCA "Racing" School.

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-dave
nerdsracing.com
8)

[gran racing]

In all honesty, I’ve had mixed emotions about this idea. While I agree that we want to keep it as easy as possible for new people to get involved, are we doing them any favors if we allow them on the track prematurely? I am partially thinking from the perspective of experienced drivers but really it is to make things easier for rookies. Maybe we just need to tighten up on who is signed off to get their licenses like previously said. I can imagine it would be tough not to sign-off a student if they seem to do o.k. out on the track and have participated in multiple schools but just are not quite ready to race competitively. At the same time it really has to be done. I still do see benefits of requiring or as a minimum very strongly encouraging new racers to get some non-W2W track time prior to participating in a competition license school. Dave made some excellent points. From what I experienced at the schools, if you did not already feel comfortable driving the track (open lapping) you should not be there. There is a reason that 99% of HPDE clubs require an instructor to ride as a passenger with newbies. I and every student I’ve talked with also view the school as a test.

I realize that SCCA is still in its infancy with the driver education / time trial program, but as that expands all of this could be done within SCCA. I also keep going back to another thing I believe SCCA needs to do to help rookies – put together a strong mentor program. An effective mentor program would provide the student the feedback and increase the learning curve thus eliminating some of the rookie issues. Most of this stems from my thinking of what it was like being a rookie (this is my 3rd year racing competitively). I was extremely lucky to have the assistance of another racer and some of his friends - thanks again Jake Fisher! While the majority of us would be more than willing to help rookies out if approached by a new driver without a mentor program, it would be great to have something formalized. Think of how much less intimidating and inviting club racing would be. This should be in place to help people even before signing-up for their first school.

Dick and Ray, I would be more than happy to help out instructing next year. I’d also be willing to assist developing some type of mentor program even if it were only in the New England Region.

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Dave Gran
NER ITB #13
'87 Honda Prelude si

[mgyip]

I don't disagree that students who attend a Race School should have driving experience to match the School but I don't believe that any of the current schools have a requirement. As has already been discussed, there's also no measure to determine that a student that has attended other clubs' schools is at an acceptable level for racing. Heck, one of the biggest trials for students at any Race School is whether or not they're cut out to go racing - some students never become comfortable with cars passing at will and the like.

Given SCCA's proclivity to overcomplicate matters, it would almost require an entire new division of SCCA to adminster HPDE events. The events would have to sanctioned and administered by DE stewards. Instructors would have to be trained by SCCA so that both the instructor's directions and the student's abilities could be measured and properly recorded.

Interestingly enough, PCA is starting to do just that - they have STUDENT log books for their DEs. After each event, the instructor is required to mark the log book to give the student credit and to note any problem areas. Furthermore, PCA is establishing instructor clinics to ensure that they all say the same things to their students rather than in the old days where each instructor touted his/her pet subject.

[Matt Rowe]

Matt,

You might want to take a closer look at the SCCA Performance Driving Experience (note PDE is a Porshce Club registered something or other and SCCA has instructed everyone not to use the PDE abbreviation) Our (SCCA's) program does include logbooks to track driver's participation and comments from instructors as well as provisions for specific training for stewards and instructors.

Although we may not require participation in the program before attending a club racing school we can see about providing specific instruction targeted to students that want to use those days for that purpose. I'll be sure to bring this up with the rest of the Time Trials advisory group. It wouldn't be that difficult to identify students gearing up for a club racing school and focus intruction and comments on the areas that are the most critical.

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~Matt Rowe
ITA Shelby Charger
MARRS #96

[ITAMiata]

The idea is great in theory, but I have to agree it may be too much to really be practical. I did a lot of drivers schools and autox events before I went to my race school and I'm glad I did. My race school was a LOT easier having already spent a good amount of time driving on the track. I can't imagine having gone through that without previous seat time. However, I don't think that it is fair to make it a requirement.

I believe earlier posts suggesting instructors be more at ease with failing a student is a good idea. Fast or slow, the drivers I dislike seeing on the track with me are the ones that regularly are involved in "incidents." Going off track by yourself is one thing, taking others with you is another. I would like to see a policy where you are allowed a certain number of incidents per year and if you exceed them they pull your license.

I also liked the mentor program previously mentioned. My first race seemed like complete chaos to me. Stickers, tech, registration, where to go and when. The ONLY reason it went as smoothly as it did is because Dave Parker was kind enough to help walk me through each step.

Bottom line, I believe everyone can, and do, improve their driving during their racing careers. Iinstead of requiring HPDE's the main focus of any new policies should be on the attitude of the people out there. If another person's safety is less important to you then your place on the final results sheet then you don't belong out there in my opinion.

Bill

[zracre]

I agree with that method...there should be different levels of instructors...just like flying, you should keep track of your students and your own hours on/at the track. Some allowance, once this is established, should me made for instructors to better qualify their drivers for track ability. I have a good friend who has many years of track days, kart racing and instructing for clubs, that wants to get into racing, but is being held back with the requirements (financial etc). People like this would benefit as would the club If people could be signed off early, or late if neccesary. There is no way now with busy SCCA schools for people to get paid quality instruction guaranteed unless they get a real good instructor (yes there are many willing to go the extra mile...but not always the case). The stewards and Chief instructor usually have their hands full with everything. If Instructors had more incentive to produce better students, there would be more instructors. Maybe free entries etc for instructors...Also having your instructor help you out at your first few races would help (until the "x" is off anyways)...just a thought...

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Evan Darling
ITA Integra

[Wayne]

No more rules, please? No more barriers to entry than already exist. Just stop.

Let the scca school instructors and stewards to their jobs. If the student passes the school/test he or she is good to go, period.

[DavidM]

I took the three day Panoz racing school along with a 4th lapping day at Road Atlanta to get my regional license. I think it was money well spent and would highly recommend it to anyone looking at getting into racing, but $3800 is no small amount of change. I had done some auto-x and a lapping day over a couple years before taking the school. So I don't have a whole lot of experience.

I feel I came out of the school with enough experience to go racing. I did a race at Road Atlanta in Februrary and that was my first (in anything) ever. My goals were to stay out of people's way and not crash (especially into someone else). I think I did that very well and managed to actually race somebody else who was as slow as me at the same time. I even went 6 seconds faster in the race than I did in qualifying (guess I have to learn to push a little harder ). Frankly, the driving was the easy part of the weekend. Trying to learn all the procedures and everything else involved in a race weekend was much more difficult.

I don't think you need a whole lot of experience to be able to go racing. I do think you need the right mental attitude. I know my car control skills aren't the greatest at them moment, so I don't push beyond a certain limit. That limit is increasing each session I'm in the car.

To me, a problem is somebody driving beyond their skills and constantly running off the track or, worse, running into other people. I don't think requiring extra driving time before racing will help that situation.

I think the only thing requiring HPDEs or some other car time before a school will accomplish is making it harder and more costly for people to get into racing. I don't think it will solve the "bad driver" problem.

David

[mgyip]

Originally posted by DavidM:
Frankly, the driving was the easy part of the weekend. Trying to learn all the procedures and everything else involved in a race weekend was much more difficult.

That's the gist of this thread - driving (and car control) should be the least of a student's worries during a race school.

I'm pleased to see that SCCA is offering PDEs to help get people involved at the beginner level within SCCA as opposed to other groups who would ultimately either draw their students into their own racing program or throw them into SCCA's program with car control skills and no clue about racecraft.

[emwavey]

Log book, Attitudes and Insurance...

Someone mentioned some "tech-transfer" with aviation... flight log book etc.

I think this is a fantastic idea. Perhaps I should have thought about this earlier when attending track days. IF I'd carried a race journal, then perhaps could have used it upon registration for an SCCA school. Besides it'd be pretty cool to have anyway. However it's really not that much different then listing out dates, places and organizations attended upon registration. The only addition would be instructor comments/suggestions, etc.

However as someone else pointed out, sometimes track experience does not necessarily reflect a person's attitude. I have just started to instruct at track days and in those two days saw a broad spectrum of experience and attitude. Some folks "get it" quickly, while others may never. One particular student said he'd been to a few t-days before, but was exhibiting habits of a complete newbie... despite 3 different instructors working with him, he was still doing exactly the same thing from start to finish.

This is where having a "journal" would help the organizers of an SCCA school. Seeing the comments would mean more then just a list.

I could see making this a requirement for safety reasons, but quite frankly and with my limited experience, I think having a complete newbie to an SCCA school is not that common-place. The only way I can see making something like this a requirement is if this would seriously decrease the amount of money the SCCA is spending on insurance. The saved money could be distributed to those regions wanting to host PDEs.

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-dave
nerdsracing.com
8)

[Jiveslug]

Yeah, the biggest problem with making the requirements more complex is the cost factor. As someone who has been trying to get into IT for the last 7 years, believe me, getting there as it stands can be quite a task. As mentioned by others before, Im not so sure it’s the classes and seat time as it is with the personality makeup of the driver. I just finished a one day driving school over here at Willow Springs in CA (Danny McKeever’s school. Was fabulous), and while we didn’t get into the passing and traffic management portion of racing in that class, I was able to feel pretty comfortable behind the wheel on the track after a couple of hours. I approached the class from the angle that I wanted to learn everything I possibly could about being a good driver. By good, I don’t mean just fast, I mean fast and safe. Were there times on the track that I went into a corner a bit too hot? Yes there were. Were there moments when I wasn’t in the best control of the car? Absolutely. However, I had the maturity and approach that kept me off the dirt and the front end pointed forward. As the day went on, those mistakes became fewer and fewer. By the end of the day, I was the fastest car on the track (all the cars were identical). Im not trying to say that I have some natural gift. In fact, I don’t think that I do. I just want to race, and race well. I listened to my instructors, listened to what the car was telling me, and used my self-preservation instinct to keep myself from doing something completely stupid. Do I feel that with training on traffic that I could run out there with other cars? I think so. Granted, Im 28 and all Ive ever wanted to do since I was a little kid is race cars. To further the point, let me tell you there was an 18 year old kid there with his father, both taking the class. Like I said, the cars were all identically prepared (late model Celicas), and each person received the same hands-on instruction from Mr. McKeever and his team (who are excellent, by the way). The father, in his 40’s, took a mature approach and just wanted to have fun. He was quick and safe all day. The son was a different story. He came out because he wanted to learn how to drive fast and then take a class for drifting. He was all over the place. The couple of times I was behind him, there was always dirt flying as he got 2 wheels off or smoke as he locked the rear brakes into almost every turn. By the end of the day he had spun twice and ended up 4 wheels in the dirt once. Would I race with his dad? Sure thing. Would I race with him? HELL NO! The class showed me that the people out there who wanted to learn how to race properly did very well. They were fast and in control of their cars. The ones who were there to “drive fast,” or because it was something “cool to tell my friends about,” were the ones spinning and going off.

Ok, so that was long winded. The jist is that the instructors of the class should feel free to fail people that do not show the proper maturity level or restraint to race with others. A rookie driver will make mistakes, and that’s just part of being a rookie. An aggressive rookie driver will make STUPID mistakes, and that’s when the trouble starts.

Maybe a good compromise would be to have the SCCA discount the driving school for those people who have taken some other classes (such as my McKeever 1 day school) or other motorsport experience. That might provide some incentive, at least.

Jive