CMP, BMW, Cams, and 944

[Ron Earp]

I was down at CMP this past weekend for a fairly disappointing weekend of racing, or should I say, a weekend of watching people race. Eventually we packed it in early Sunday morning since we lost a clutch and our limited slip rear end, both of which made the car completely undrivable.

However, when I went over to the tech stand on Friday night I saw a cylinder head with some cams lying on a table. I asked one of the fellows who’s car it was that blew up and he replied none. Turns out they were stock BMW 325 heads and cams. He then told me that BMW’s were in question as to what cams they were running because specifications were not outlined in the shop manual, therefore, some people took that to mean cams were free as well as they were liberal with “port matching”. He didn’t say a lot more than that, I don’t know who brought the cams and head or if something happened.

Anyone that was down there, did something happen to BMW’s with respect to protesting?

I only saw one running on Saturday and can’t even remember who it was, although it was fast and ran well. The stronger BMW cars I've seen, orange one and the black one that I saw at VIR on Mother's Day, were not there this weekend. My guess is (based on flow calulcations) that the plates did nothing for the incredible torque the motors produce throughout the rev range and the proper thing to have done with them is put them BACK at the weight it was classed at in the first place.

Nevertheless, I had a great time for the few hours I was there at the track and enjoyed meeting a lot of new people. As far as cars, I was quite impressed with a Grey Porsche 944s from the Northeast I saw running down there than anything else – one of the first I’d seen at CMP and it was very fast. Anyone here own, drive, or know about it?

Ron




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Ron Earp
NC Region
Ford Lightning
RF GT40 Replica
White Jensen-Healey ITS
Silver "Skull" 260Z ITS

[Knestis]

Sounds like the old, "We're bringing stock parts to leave in tech" strategy...

It's academic to this case, since there's no evidence that it ever actually became a question, but whether or not there is a spec called out in the factory manual has EXACTLY nothing to do with what is legal, cam-wise.

The rule says stock, as delivered so we can use any cam that actually came in a US-spec version of the car on the spec line in question.

K

[Bryan Watts]

Originally posted by rlearp:
the proper thing to have done with them is put them BACK at the weight it was classed at in the first place.

It's been a while since I played around with IT BMW's, but my memory seems to recall the cars being ORIGINALLY classed at 2850, then it was changed to 2950 without any real precedent to do so in IT rules, and thus it was then changed back to 2850.

[Ron Earp]

You might be right there, I'm new to this and was simply told by the tech guy that they used to be at a higher weight.

At any rate, they are at a much lower weight than any street car ever drove at, while my JH spec weight is actually higher than stock curb weight! I digress. You are probably right, I was simply going on what the fellow told me which is probably not a good idea - verify before writing! Sorry.

As far as the cams, Kirk you are right completely on the rules, but that tech guys' point was there are no specs in the BMW manual (he says) so having a stock one around to take lift measurements from and do a visual inspection is useful. I don't know, was just wanting to learn the story of why those things were there and what happened.

Ron

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Ron Earp
NC Region
Ford Lightning
RF GT40 Replica
White Jensen-Healey ITS
Silver "Skull" 260Z ITS

[This message has been edited by rlearp (edited May 31, 2005).]

[Andy Bettencourt]

A grey 944S from the Northeast? Betting it is Kip VanSteenburg. His first race was Pocono three weeks ago. Car ran strong Saturday but had clutch slave cylinder issues Sunday and DNS'd. Results for reference:

http://www.mylaps.com/results/newResults.jsp?id=157353

and

http://www.mylaps.com/results/newResults.jsp?id=157084

AB

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Andy Bettencourt
New England Region, R188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com

[JeffYoung]

Andy, it was Kip's car. Very well prepared, very fast.

[mlytle]

which black bmw at vir? the all black one(mine) or the black/red/white one(ed york)? he is faster...

marshall

[Ron Earp]

Black/red/white and the orange one, those things were very fast on the course being something like 5-8 seconds per lap ahead of the next fastest ITS car, maybe a little more as I can't remember, check it on MyLaps. Good drivers, that is for sure.

Any insight into the head cam issue if you were at CMP?



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Ron Earp
NC Region
Ford Lightning
RF GT40 Replica
White Jensen-Healey ITS
Silver "Skull" 260Z ITS

[Bill Miller]

Originally posted by Bryan Watts:
It's been a while since I played around with IT BMW's, but my memory seems to recall the cars being ORIGINALLY classed at 2850, then it was changed to 2950 without any real precedent to do so in IT rules, and thus it was then changed back to 2850.

Bryan,

There have been other cases where spec weights have been 'corrected' [sic] after a car has been classified. But, we've got PCA's in place now, and I'm sure that they'll do what ever it takes to bring the car back to the field.

Ron,

As I understand it, the only thing curb weights have to do w/ spec weights, is a reality check to see if you can actually make it.


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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[Bill Miller]

On the subject of this thread, how do you prove that the parts brought, are actually stock, and are the proper things to be compared to?

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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[Bryan Watts]

5-8 seconds PER LAP? Did the York and Sunbelt cars have superchargers at CMP?

[This message has been edited by Bryan Watts (edited May 31, 2005).]

[seckerich]

The parts in question were brought by the chief of tech. They remain from last year when they were sourced for the protest on the Sunbelt car Chet was driving. I contacted the chief before the weekend last year and asked if they would be prepared for teardown of an e36. I did not identify the car nor request specific parts. It was my understanding that another driver planned a similar teardown this weekend if that car showed- it did not. The only parts allowed in teardown for comparison must be provided by tech from a known source so it expedites the process if they are prepared. Yes, the BMW's were about 3 seconds faster than the RX at VIR but York "skipped" some of the course and had to start at the back of the S field. Chet was fast and smooth and had lots of pull off the corners. Cost me about 2 car lenths every exit. The grand course was perfect for the BMW torque with lots of exits off slow corners.

[This message has been edited by seckerich (edited May 31, 2005).]

[Ron Earp]

Brian, the speed advantage I referred to with the BMWs was at the Grand Course at VIR. Yes, if you check MyLaps the times are quite a bit faster than most of the S field with their laptimes being 5 seconds or more faster than other cars. Steve has a really fast RX7, I think the fastest in the SE, and it couldn't come close to those things at VIR then - they were that fast.

So those parts are from the Cheif of Tech there then? I need to pay more attention and learn to know more people, but I am trying.

Was last year the year that the parts were to be used for a protest but BMW's left the paddock area before running at all once they learned of the parts being available? That doesn't sound too good if true. Someone in the shed said something about that but then the line got busy and I didn't want to hold people up jabbering.

Maybe they were looking for the Group N cams that James Clay posted in a thread in the BMW Forum a year or so ago. Since only a couple cars seem to be walking away from the rest of the ITS field, it does make one wonder if it's the car, the driver, or something else?

Speaking of the BMW weight, anyone else notice that one of the newest cars to be classed in ITS is 250 pounds heavier than the E-36?
The 94-95 Mustang V-6, which is saddled with smaller brakes (front and rear), less power stock and in ITS tune (most likely compared to the E-36's anyways)and it has to weigh in at 3100 pounds? No wonder there haven't been many Mustangs built for ITS. The Mustang isn't the only newer car listed at over 3000 pounds.

[This message has been edited by 2Many Z's (edited May 31, 2005).]

[mlytle]

drivers. ed york and chet wittel would be the cream of the its crop. ed smokes all the rest of us by 2 sec a lap at summit point. my in car vid from vir is interesting. i was second row on the start behind them and was with them to turn one. by turn 5 they were gone. i'd bet their cars are legal, they just drive a heck of a lot better than i do....


[This message has been edited by mlytle (edited May 31, 2005).]

[This message has been edited by mlytle (edited May 31, 2005).]

Marshall,
I think Ed's biggest advantage is the car. Yes, he's a damn good driver, but, there are a lot of good drivers in ITS in the DC region who are just as good, they just don't the HP that Ed has. I'd be willing to bet if Ed drove Ted's car or your's, his lap times wouldn't be much faster.

Ed has a ton of laps at Summit, but he makes mistakes just like anyone else, especially when Sam (wonder where he's been?)is on his tail. I've watched him totally blow the entry into the Carousel (once I think he even got a DNF because he slammed the inside curbing so hard)lap after lap when Sam is hounding him.

I've never watched Chet in person, but from what people have said about him when they competed in the ARRC against him, he's one of the smoothest and most consistant drivers in the class.

Guess we'll see how Ed does this weekend in the 12 Hour and if his lap times are considerably faster than his teammates. I know I'm going to be timing them off and one just to see.......


[This message has been edited by 2Many Z's (edited June 01, 2005).]

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by 2Many Z's:
The 94-95 Mustang V-6, which is saddled with smaller brakes (front and rear), less power stock and in ITS tune (most likely compared to the E-36's anyways)and it has to weigh in at 3100 pounds?

For the record, the Mustang classification is being corrected, because we had incorrect data when we classified it and used the wrong HP figures... I believe the new weight will be more in the 2850lb range, but I'd have to go back and look through my notes to be certain...

As for the E36 weight and the implimentation of the restrictor... Well, let me just say that no one on the ITAC is suprised that the restrictor was not enough... it is being monitored...

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Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX

[mlytle]

Originally posted by 2Many Z's:
Marshall,
I think Ed's biggest advantage is the car. Yes, he's a damn good driver, but, there are a lot of good drivers in ITS in the DC region who are just as good, they just don't the HP that Ed has. I'd be willing to bet if Ed drove Ted's car or your's, his lap times wouldn't be much faster.

Ed has a ton of laps at Summit, but he makes mistakes just like anyone else, especially when Sam (wonder where he's been?)is on his tail. I've watched him totally blow the entry into the Carousel (once I think he even got a DNF because he slammed the inside curbing so hard)lap after lap when Sam is hounding him.

I've never watched Chet in person, but from what people have said about him when they competed in the ARRC against him, he's one of the smoothest and most consistant drivers in the class.

Guess we'll see how Ed does this weekend in the 12 Hour and if his lap times are considerably faster than his teammates. I know I'm going to be timing them off and one just to see.......


[This message has been edited by 2Many Z's (edited June 01, 2005).]

i think sam is still without a car after the the marrs9 crash. not sure when he will be back.

have fun at the 12hr! wish i could make it, but i have to work. ed was cutting laps faster than his team mates last year. be interesting to see how he does this year!

[ed325its]

I must disagree that the addition of a restrictor plate was not enough. My car is certainly down on torque, and I am sure the RX-7 that had to push me out of turn 3 and up the hill at NHIS will have to agree. (Thanks BTW) Let's wait for evidence of the effect of the restrictor plate before making additional statements and adjustments. I do agree that there are cars, and the E36 not the only one, which need to be reigned back to the pack. In the Northeast the RX-7 holds nearly all of the track records and has set new, blistering, records this year. It is time to consider PCA's on additional cars. I would like to see a more competiitve field.

Ed

[Ron Earp]

From what I've read on the board over the months it appears to me there are differences based on regions as to the competitiveness of BMWs.


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Ron Earp
NC Region
Ford Lightning
RF GT40 Replica
White Jensen-Healey ITS
Silver "Skull" 260Z ITS