OT: Small car or big car for first time driver

[Wayne]

Been looking for a starter car (street car) for my soon to be driving teenager. Only want to spend 2-4K for this first car. Been looking at older BMW's, 240sx type cars thinking that with some work he could use them for track days should he be interested in that. He is also 6'4" now at 15 years old, and still growing strong. Leg room is important.

However, my thinking has been colored a bit lately by input from some of the guys who I workout with. They are all fire fighters, emt's etc. To a person, they refuse to drive small cars themselves, and refuse to allow their spouse/kids to own small cars.

As you can imagine they have seen the ugly side of vehicle accidents, and their theory is the more mass the better. Even better is if you can provide more mass w/ airbags.

They don't make a lot of money at these professions so you don't see them buying new lexus or suburban suv's for their kids. They buy older, larger vehicles. At a minimum the car has lap/shoulder belts of course, and if it also has drivers side airbag that's a bonus.

What do you guys think about this issue? What will your teenager drive when they first start out?

BTW, I realize that driver training (beyond the minimum) is a good investment. But even the most skilled driver in the world can't avoid the other idiots on the road 100% of the time.

Wayne

[x-ring]

I was thinking F150 2WD with the smallest 6-cylinder engine they make.

If they still sold the old type manual transmission (granny low, two seconds per shift) it would be even better.

Hey, I was 16 once too.

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Ty Till
#16 ITS
Rocky Mountain Division

[dave parker]

Wayne
I second what Ty said. Make sure the thing looks hideous too so that his friends won't ride with him.
I read in one of the insurance rags that a teenaged driver is distracted 25% more for every additional person in the car with them.

Come to think of it, why would anyone let a teenager drive a car on the public roadways?
I am sure I will have fun explaining that to my daughter when she turns 16.

cheers
dave parker
wdcr ITC#97

[VWPartsGuy]

Mine's only 3 years old so I've got some time to mull this over but I was thinking 80's SAAB 900 or Volvo 240. Normally aspirated of course and maybe with a MicroDynamics rev-limiter hidden on it somewhere.

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Thomas Benham

[gsbaker]

Get him a 1966 Dodge Polara with a 6 cylinder. It meets all the specs: big, slow and ugly. The closest I could get to that for my daughter was a Sebring coupe, which she promptly bent.

A larger car will win the physics contest with a smaller car. Avoid top-heavy ones if possible.

A friend had both his teenagers complete a car control class before he got them wheels.

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Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com

[planet6racing]

Well, if you don't want to be really mean, let me put in a shameless plug:

A first gen (91-95) Saturn SL2.

The cars run great, have plastic body panels so a lot of those minor dings just don't happen, and handle pretty well in stock form.

In terms of Safety, 91&92 had optional DS airbags, 93&94 had DS airbags (no options), and 95 got a PS airbag. 91-94 had the automatic seatbelts as well. In terms of crash safety, I've personally done the offset crash test (the same one the Insurance institute does) in my first Saturn. A driver decided to flip an illegal U-turn in front of me and I hit him at just under 40 mph with the DS. I walked away from the accident nearly unhurt (airbag blew my hand into the windshield, so I had (2) very bruised knuckles).

If interested, I can fill you in on everything to look for when purchasing one of these. There are plenty out there, so you should be able to find a good example in your price range.

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Bill
Planet 6 Racing
bill (at) planet6racing (dot) com

[Greg Amy]

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">...they refuse to drive small cars themselves, and refuse to allow their spouse/kids to own small cars...their theory is the more mass the better.</font>

I must say I am distinctly troubled over society's growing near-sociopathic tendency of placing people in extreme mass vehicles, knowing full well that the intention of doing such is to kill and not be killed, regardless of responsibility for the event. Even more troubling is the idea of handing such a lethal weapon over to an ignorant, unskilled, potentially immature driver...

I suggest a much more socially responsible (and effective) alternative is to send your teenager to a reputable driving school to first, gain the skills necessary to not cause an accident, and second, gain the skills necessary to avoid an accident should someone else cause one. Then, I would consider purchasing a reasonably safe and nimble alternative to the brute-force "kill 'em all and let God Sort 'em out" option.

If we continue our mutually-asssured destruction of larger and larger vehicles being equipped by drivers of lessening skills, we're sure to grow to our own critical mass of total vehicular annihilation... GregA

[lateapex911]

I'm with Greg here, maybe not quite as far, but I am troubled by the societal shirking of responsibilty when it comes to the mass purchasing of huge "sport" utilities.

Around here at least, I see them driven with only the driver 90% of the time, and rarely are they carrying, hauling or towing anything, and if they are, most of the time it could fit in an average sedan.

Truth be known, the REAL reason most folks, around these parts, at least, buy them is the displaced damage criteria, and the fact that they are way cooler than a mini-van, which, for most people, would have been the most sensible choice.

The "large barge" is safer attutude displayed by the firemen is a worst case situation reaction. They see the results of the question, "IF you are driving and need to stop/swerve or avoid something, and you can't, is it better to plow into an object going 50MPH in a HUGE big heavy boat, or a small compact light dingy"?

Duh....

BUT...is the QUESTION valid???? It is a question that is based in PASSIVE safety. In other words, if the occupants are merely along for the ride, whats best?
But what about the concept of ACTIVE safety? The ability to stomp on the brakes and actually stop BEFORE you plow into something? Or the ability to swerve and avoid an accident altogether?

Are the firemen telling you it's better to crash and be ok than to not crash at all??

I think I would look for something that has ABS, is reasonably sized, has airbags, good seats and belts, and can stop and get out of trouble easily. NOT a barge...maybe an Audi or similar. And lacking horsepower won't hurt in the begining either.

As to the '66 Polaris comment...ouch! that hurt...I was allowed to drive the family's '66 Coronet as long as I made and paid for all the repairs..and they were plentiful. Not recommended!

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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[gsbaker]

1) Ditto Greg's comment. Investing in drivers is better for everyone than investing in iron.

2) Ditto Bill's comment. We have a '94 in the family and with about 100K on it the only unexpected maintenance has been an alternator. Easy to work on, reliable, safe and inexpensive.

G

[gsbaker]

Originally posted by lateapex911:
...As to the '66 Polaris comment...ouch! that hurt...I was allowed to drive the family's '66 Coronet as long as I made and paid for all the repairs..and they were plentiful. Not recommended!

Yeah Jake, but didn't you look cool in it?

G

[Wayne]

Originally posted by lateapex911:
Are the firemen telling you it's better to crash and be ok than to not crash at all??

Don't be silly Jake. Of course they are not saying that. Most all of their kids were sent to some sort of car control school. They are simply saying that beyond trained drivers and accident avoidance, more mass is going to win out over less mass in many cases. And, all the training in the world is not going to help you when the "other guy" plows into the side of your Toyota Tercel with his full-size 3/4 ton truck. (despite your mad driving skills and best efforts to avoid said accident)

Their view is obviously going to be colored because they are the ones that have to scrape people out of their cars after an accident.

Nobody is denying the value of a driving school. My son will be attending Bondurants teenage driving school. I am VERY familiar with that particular program and believe it's worth the cost to travel down there. I'll either take the class with him, or do the advanced road racing class while I'm down there.

I also have the option of putting him in one of our local performance driving clinics, but to be honest, I'm not nearly as impressed with the local efforts yet.

Wayne

[ilateapex]

Bigger is beater. I had a '79 olds 98 Regency. Crashed a month after my license with 3 other guys in the car. Not paying enough attention and ran out of talent. No one hurt, No seatbelts. My next crash took place as a senior with my then girlfriend and later ex-wife. '80 300SD head into a phone pole. Walked away not feeling a thing. Totaled that one too. Now since then only minor fender benders with driving over 50K miles a year. The thing is that nothing can replace experience. No matter which school they go to at that age, nothing can replace seat time. Sound familiar?? I started HPDE in 1998 and was so surprised at how little I knew about driving. My 61 Y.O. father crashed his Lexus LS400 a few weeks ago and hit a 16Y.O. in a small Chevy Caviler. He T-boned her as she went through a light. Her 17Y.O passenger said my Dad ran the light and Dad swears he saw green. He got the air bag busted knuckles in the windshield and she was cut from the car and life flighted with a broken feemer(sp?). He is now looking for another large sedan with lots of air bags. I don't think Wayne is looking for SUV but just large sedan. BMW 535i?, MB 300SD?

Michael
33 Y.O. and still learning to drive

[Matt Rowe]

The point being made is large cars fair better when hitting small cars. That's fine, if you're in the large car. If you switch places for a moment do you want to be in a little fuel efficient, lightweight toyota and get hit by somebody in a big suv? No. So why advocate putting someone in that position? Getting a large car because you need the room is fine. Getting one because you want to inflict more damage than you take is just selfish.

Then also add in the consideration that gas is pushing the $2.50 a gallon mark, and teenagers usually don't have money to spare. A economical car with a good safety rating is the way I would go. Besides, bigger and heavier doesn't always mean better in a crash. Not if the engineers do their jobs right. And avoidance is worth a lot, especially if you teach them not just how to control the car, but how to see trouble before it happens.

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~Matt Rowe
ITA Shelby Charger
MARRS #96

[Wayne]

Yeah, I'm thinking sedan over suv for sure. The 535's are nice cars but can you even get them for under 7 or 8K these days?

The Saturn's that Bill mentioned might be good. I see a lot of the kids around there driving those. The automatic seat-belts drive me nuts though... of course I won't be driving it much.

Do the older 240sx's have air bags? Do they have the auto seat-belts?

[ddewhurst]

My boys are two years apart. In the early 80's while in high school they had a 1973 Buick something four door station wagon $hity red color with a big a$$ed motor with a four barrel & automatic. Oh, with a razor back license plate on the front. That big ugly piece of $hit became the hit of the city. Can you visualise a large front seat, a large rear seat & a large cargo area. Let your mind wonder. Fastest thing that raced the streets, in REVERSE.

Have Fun
David

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by Wayne:

Originally posted by lateapex911:
Are the firemen telling you it's better to crash and be ok than to not crash at all??

Don't be silly Jake. Of course they are not saying that. ....Wayne

Well, I wasn't being literal, but, in a way, many people DO say that....they just don't know it.

When i think of all the "close calls" over the years, I can think of a few that would have been real events if the vehicle I was driving was something that didn't turn, or took 30 more feet to stop from 60.

To me, I would prefer to go the route that is more interested in active avoidance, and then backs it up with passive measures.

A 5 Series BMW is an excellent choice. I still have a 528e...great chassis, so-so motor...ideal inexpensive kids car..wanna buy it?

...and as to the '66 Coronet,..it even had 4 doors...I would have killed for a 2 door version, let alone something foreign...like the 911 that had the parking spot next to mine in the high school lot!



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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[Wayne]

Hmmm, I knew I shouldn't have started researching the 535's. I only found two of them within 1000 miles of me.

One of them was this one:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAP...6&category=6008

That seems like WAY too nice a car for a kids first car, plus it doesn't have an airbag, and it's over the budget. But dang, I think I might look good in it! Could use it as a commuter instead of my truck....

must look at Saturn's.. must look at Saturn's..

[lateapex911]

One last thought....a kid whole loves and has pride in his car might just be more responsible and take better care of it..

I love the idea you are going to teach him how to control and drive a car..that's huge!

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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[therooster]

"Get him a 1966 Dodge Polara with a 6 cylinder."

I too resemble that remark. My first car was a '67 Valiant with the 6 cyl. I got it in '90 and still have it with only about 80K orig miles.

Chris

[apr67]

Look for a mid 90's VW, golf or better yet Jetta. Non-VR6, diesel would be even better.

The VW's are well built and crash well.

Mid 90's Volvos (wagon) are nice too.

As for people driving SUV's that have only 1 driver 90% of the time. Have you tried to put a rear facing child seat in most cars? It's very difficult to do in the average car, unless you like bending over a lot. Plus in many cars you can not put the seat all the way back if you have a child seat behind it (rear facing). The goverments child saftey crap is causing the increase in SUV's. And I don't think a Grand Caravan gets significantly better mileage than the Trailblazer ext.