IT going national? Could it happen? No way? Well Maybe?

[Greg Amy]

100?

Be careful what you wish for. Spec Miata got its wish, and before you could begin celebrating it the '99+ Miata was added - with virtually no membership notification or input, effective immediately. This, no doubt, was at the request of The Money (e.g., Mazda). To add insult to injury, we find that the guy running SpecMiata.com and another guy that works for Mazda Motorsports had already purchased and were preparing '99s for SM.

The car was "supposedly" throttled and weighted down sufficiently to be reviewed for future competition adjustment. Well, word has it that last weekend a '99 beat the SPR track record, and that another one came from the back of the field to around 8th position before getting punted.

Going high profile (National, TV coverage, sponsorship) has its advantages, but when The Money gets involved, things happen fast. Real fast.

[Bill Miller]

Originally posted by rjohnson999:
I guess you really need to do some work on your SCCA history. Anyone who thinks region officials don't matter reveals a gross misunderstanding of the club structure.

Regions, not Topeka or the CRB or the BOD, put on races. That's where the real power is in the club.

Your view of how the driver progression should be structured has been suggested before. It fails the fundamental test of scheduling. Unless, of course, you're looking to kill off a bunch of classes and get down to about four run groups. Other clubs doing this, like EMRA, have much smaller entries that are clustered much differently than the SCCA region in the same market.

Many tracks, and therefore regions, are bound by local use limitations. Those restrictions are getting tighter, not loser. Let's see how you'd do a complete event schedule that gives all classes fair and meaningful track time. Let's see how you'd do a schedule that allows events at Lime Rock to support an entry with sub 40 car/group limits. Let's see how you'd safely group cars at a track that supports 100 car/group limits. Oh, and throw in some sponsor requirements for big events like the Rose Cup and June Sprints.

Just the CRB and BOD? You don't have a clue.

Ok Mr. Johnson, let's analyze this response. As Mr. Knestis so aptly pointed out, your bias agains Regional drivers colors your entire position.

Let's look at the 'the fundamental test of scheduling' (I had no idea there was such a test). We're talking about adding 4 more classes to a Qualifying Race (they're already part of the Non-Qualifying races, so no need to worry about them there). Granted, these would probably be very well subscribed classes, and may require additional run groups.

It actually becomes a simple matter of numbers. Those classes that bring the most cars to the track, are the ones that get to run. It may not be popular, but it would certainly be more equitable. Just for an example, I looked at the April, '04 results from the Summit Point National. Group 2 (CSR/DSR/S2) had 16 starters (half of which were S2 cars). Why should a group that can only bring that many cars to the track get the slot over a group that could easily bring 3x that many cars to the track? Do you consider that 'fair'? BTW, you could have groups the SRF/DSR/CSR/S2 cars together and still had room. However, I do realize that this won't be true at every race at every track, so I don't hold this up as evidence, merely cite it as an example.

And your comments about tracks w/ limits doesn't really hold any water either. Let's use LRP as an example (since you brought it up). Run group size is limited to 40 cars, per the 25 cars per mile regulation. How is it currently handled for a National, if say, 45 SRF's show up? I'm pretty sure that only the first 40 cars to register, are allowed on the track. Sure, if you're #41, you can register, and show up at the track, but you're only going to get to run if somebody ahead of you doesn't run. However, I'm sure all this has already been taken into consideration w/ SM being added for '06. Pretty safe bet that they're going to get their own run group at tracks like LRP, Beaver Run, or Summit Point.

As far as the safety issue of what cars are group w/ what, there are plenty of races out there today, w/ screwy run groups (as the Prod folks how they like running w/ SRF or SS). And the response from Topeka has been that it's up to the race organizers to address the issues of run groups. So much for your much lauded officials.

Other clubs doing this, like EMRA, have much smaller entries that are clustered much differently than the SCCA region in the same market.

I've quoted this again, because after reading it for about the 10th time, I still can't figure out how it is germane to the discussion at hand. What exactly is EMRA 'doing'? If you're talking about the fact that they don't have different license grades, why should they, they're a local organization that has no distinction between cars, drivers, or races. And you lambast me for supposedly equating the Runoffs to the ARRC. You compare the SCCA to EMRA, now there's a laugh. Note: No disrespect intended towards the EMRA folks. They're a fine group (it's who I started racing with), that fill a need, and provide a valuable service to their customers. And please provide data to support your claim regarding entry clustering.

Just the CRB and BOD? You don't have a clue.

Please re-read my post, I said drivers, CRB, and BoD.



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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[Bill Miller]

Each situation is served by separating Regional and National racing.

As to the issue of IT being over subscribed, how about sticking to a little intellectual honesty here and working to overcome the designation of Regional only if that's what you want to accomplish. Back door attempts to effect this kind of change will be resisted by forces strong enough to scuttle the effort and you won't even feel the knife.

"Intellectual honesty"? Now there's a laugh. And just how exactly is what's being put forth here 'back door'? There's no hidden agenda here, it's all out in the open. You last statement is pretty troubling though. You imply that there is some group w/in the club that will run things they way they want to, regardless of what the membership at large wants. Is this really the impression that you want people to have of how things are done? Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that I don't think there are forces w/in this club that will bend/break/totally ignore the rules, if it's in keeping w/ how they want things done, but to come out and state that this is how things are done, is a pretty big step.

As a side note, I have to admit that I was wrong regarding Prod cars running DOT tires when IT came about, and that the Prod prep rules were probably more liberal than IT rules today. I stand corrected.

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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[emwavey]

I could care less about going to the Runoffs, at least at this point. I'm a newbie and just glad to have a place to race.

If I have this straight, the current way to "advance" is to switch classes to a Nationally recognized class, which most likely means selling a car and buying another one. In some cases it means modifying your existing car. That seems kind of odd to me. I understand the money aspect and perhaps that is why IT is regional only. Regional = less money?

The bottom line is that IT seems like a really fun place to race. I'd hate for it to change, but I do think it is ashame that more people do not know about it... or that it is being kept off the radar by not being allowed at the runoffs.

Reading the bantering back and forth is entertaining, but frustrating as well. I think Mr. Johnson is offering us some insight to how "our" arguements will be met. Let's consider taking a less confrontational tone and see it that gets "us" anywhere.

Things that make sense to me is the arguement that IT could be considered a National class based on numbers subscribed and plain good competition, versus, why IT is considered a regional-only class. Since there are classes like ITE, IT7, Spec7, GT-Pinto, which I believe are specific to certain regions. How could IT be a Nationally recognized class when not all classes are subscribed to in each region. So would these classes be allowed, or would it simply be ITS, and A-C? Would there be a class restructure?

Personally I still like my idea the best. I would love to see a couple IT races run in conjunction with the Speed Touring and GT races. It would, in my limited perspective, be easier, or more entertaining for family members or potential crew members to make the trek to a race.

Keep IT as regional, just so it looks good on the "books", and perhaps send an invite to the best one or two classes subscribed to thoughout the year and the top (insert #) drivers invited. Run them in the same group with a split start.

The positive is advertising an "entry-level" class.

As a new ITA driver in a CRX, I'm considering running with NASA for a race just to see what it's like. I'm looking at the HypeRFest at Summit Point, because it offers folks I would invite to come with me, a chance to do something other then walk around the paddock... seems like a more entertaining show for a spectator, ie, someone who wouldn't rather be in the car racing themselves.

This isn't about being self serving, but more about getting more, younger folks into the folds of club racing.

I'm up to 4 cents now.

-dave
8)

[Knestis]

Originally posted by rjohnson999:
... I've said several things here. One, that new drivers progress

That seems like it goes without saying so we agree. However, you intimated that there is some correlation among "newness," "skill level," and license level. That does not hold.

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">... two, that drivers make choices on where they want to race</font>

Also - no question. But this discussion isn't about drivers choosing what class to run - at least not from my point of view. It's about what might be good for Club Racing. If you asked 100 people without vested interests whether they enjoyed watching the typical IT group at a typical Regional more than a typical Prod group at a typical National, I'll bet that a huge majority of them would agree. The fact that the IT group is larger is clear evidence of what the drivers prefer.

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">... three that different parts of the country have different needs</font>

This is germane if the conversation is just about regionals having the flexibility to do what they need to do, to meet members' needs. The idea of IT having attributes of what we currently call "National status" isn't about that and does NOTHING to prevent regions from being in charge of their own destiny.

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">... and four, IT is not representative of all classes.</font>

I frankly am not even sure what this means, in the context of this conversation. Sorry.

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">... how about sticking to a little intellectual honesty here and working to overcome the designation of Regional only if that's what you want to accomplish. ...</font>

There's no 'back door' here - no sneakiness, no hidden agenda. Any consideration of National status for IT would obviously require that this clause go away, but any argument that the rule should be updated is predicated on someone making a case that there is value to the change that it enables.

Kirk

(who's having a hard time envisioning an argumentative position that operates from a less intellectually honest position than the classic, de facto Catch 22 - We can't grant IT National status because the rule won't let us, and we can't consider changing the rule because it shouldn't gain that status.)

[Bill Miller]

So would these classes be allowed, or would it simply be ITS, and A-C? Would there be a class restructure?

Dave,

It would only be for IT classes that currently have their specifications listed in the GCR. In other words, ITS/A/B/C. If the SRX7/IT7/Pro7 folks can get together on a single set of rules, and can get them listed in the GCR, then I would think that they'd be eligible as well (not unlike the SM folks did, and yes, I know, SM has nothing to do w/ IT! ).

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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[gsbaker]

Originally posted by Knestis:
(We can't grant [insert subject] status because the rule won't let us, and we can't consider changing the rule because it shouldn't gain that status.)

This logic comes in many flavors.

G

[emwavey]

...In other words, ITS/A/B/C. If the SRX7/IT7/Pro7 folks can get together on a single set of rules, and can get them listed in the GCR, then I would think that they'd be eligible as well...

This was another thing that I found pretty frustrating. Not only does it devalue, or at least limit the area of a car, it's confusing and inconvenient. I would have purchased an IT-7 that my bro-in-law had for sale, however there was no IT-7 class in the N.E. Call me crazy, (I hear you saying it) I didn't want to start racing in a car I knew had a less then competitive chance even fully built... this way I'm sure I can blame myself.

Sorry for the tangent, but I think this plays into the mind-set of why certain individuals see IT in general as a regional-only class.

I like the idea of creating some "hype". If anyone is motivated enough to send me a recap, photos and/or videos of their racing experience in IT, I'll gladly post the story. Until I run out, I have a few 100% cotton t-shirts left that I'll gladly sent to you.
This is my other hobby:
http://www.nerdsracing.com/nerdnotes1.htm

I've also looked into teaming up with a local video production company to cover a few events. They, GRDMedia, have been out to a few local autocross events, sticking multiple cameras inside cars, mine included, as well as video from outside. Ed, is his name, was also was able to put telemetry (sp?) showing lateral, exceleration and braking G-force, as well as MPH and time.
http://www.candcstudios.com/motorsports.htm
Scroll about 2/3 of the way down to see what I'm talking about.

I was thinking this might be pretty cool for an IT race to have maybe 3-5 drivers covered with in-car and "simply" station some cameras around a course.

Perhaps if more folks saw how really cool IT racing is, the idea of IT becoming a National class would gain more merit?

Continuing to brainstorm and create tangets.

-dave, who's an artist by trade and can't help to "tangent".
8)

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by rjohnson999:
The problem for those putting your position forward is that it uses oversimplification in order to demonize my position.

Call me crazy, but "demonize"???? Interesting word choice...

...... working to overcome the designation of Regional only if that's what you want to accomplish. Back door attempts to effect this kind of change will be resisted by forces strong enough to scuttle the effort and you won't even feel the knife.

This statement, especially the italicized (mine) section, is by far the most deeply disturbing and pervasive comment I have EVER read on this forum, or any other that I frequent...

Who are you?? What background do you have in the club?? Do you function as a officer in any way? Are you a driver?

Just to be fair, I am a member of NER, have been in the club for the better part of two decades, have been president of a local sports car club, have volunteered my time to pay back the club by working many positions in the roadracing arm of the region, and I do have, due to my involvement, a basic understanding of some of the workings of the club. Oh, and I pay my financial way with my membership dollar and my entries.

That statement disturbs me.


------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[Knestis]

Originally posted by lateapex911:
... Do you function as a officer in any way? ...

Oh, yes - please let THIS be the case.

K

[Bill Miller]

Originally posted by Knestis:
Oh, yes - please let THIS be the case.

K

Boy howdy!!!



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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[rjohnson999]

Let's see what flies and what winds up on the floor. None of us are going to make anything happen here.

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by rjohnson999:
..... None of us are going to make anything happen here.

You need to pay more attention then...



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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[Knestis]

It's discourse and there isn't a darned thing wrong with it.

Just for fun, I tried to find the "original discussion" that you (rjohnson999) referenced in an early post here. I couldn't locate anything that looked substantial enough to be considered complete coverage of the topic at hand but I DID discover that, while you clearly have a good understanding of Club organization, you seem to work really hard to keep your Clark Kent identity super-secret.

It's a shame really because you have some informed things to say. They just don't garner any respect - at least not from me - when you play web seagull, swooping in to drop an anonymous load on a thread, then sailing off again...

K

[This message has been edited by Knestis (edited April 26, 2005).]

[Mattberg]

" ...... working to overcome the designation of Regional only if that's what you want to accomplish. Back door attempts to effect this kind of change will be resisted by forces strong enough to scuttle the effort and you won't even feel the knife. "

Mr. Johnson,

I'm more than a little disturbed by this comment and I've seen your type in action. Overbearing officials that seem to think they run the joint. We need you like a fish needs a bicycle. You are what's bad in this club.

Times are changing and one major issue is stewarding and regional structure. I watched as regional officials tried to strongarm Spec Miata into regional only status. You stabbed us in the back at first by using a backdoor move yourself and we took our licks but in the end we recovered and beat your pansy ass into submission. That's a fact and it will be repeated. You overestimate your own importance. There's more coming, trust me on that one including getting rid of little dictators like Costas Dunais who seems to motivate all you little Napoleans with his secret steward's newsletter and handbook that should be titled, "How to Be a Total Asshole".

We need workers, not regional executives and stewards on ego trips that try and imply this is some sort of political power battle that officials control.

I will make sure to take your comments with me to Topeka next month and to the BoD in ongoing discussions. Getting rid of guys like you is a major topic of concern.

The thought that you think you can put a knife in anyone or thwart the efforts of drivers to do what they want in this club illustrates your ignorance. I will personally make sure your type is eliminated from this club forever and the club returned to the once fine social special interest it once was and one that IT proudly represents better than any National racing class at the present time.

It's funny, you sound a lot like Peter Olivola... who is easily the biggest horse's ass in the SCCA ...I wonder...? Whaddya' think Bill? :-)

Rant over. Sorry Guys.

[Bill Miller]

Kirk,

Could you do us all a favor, and post the link to that thread.

Matt,

I'm not really sure who it is, but I'm betting that he's realized that he really stepped on his crankshaft w/ that comment. I actually think that Mr. Olivola would have the sack to sign his name to his comments. This coward obviously doesn't. As Kirk, and others, have said, he gets zero respect and credibility if he can't even stand up for his own position.

One of the things that I hope is required when we move to the new version of this site, is that people use their real names, supply real email addresses, and, if they're SCCA members (or members of some other club, e.g. EMRA, NASA, etc.) that they supply their membership #. If we don't facilitate anonymous posting like that of Mr. Johnson, cowards like him will stay away.

And a final word to Mr. Johnson, if you can't own up to who you are, either keep your trap shut, or don't let the door hit you on the way out!

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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[Peter Olivola]

Originally posted by Bill Miller:
I actually think that Mr. Olivola would have the sack to sign his name to his comments.

Thanks, Bill. I think.

[ddewhurst]

***It's funny, you sound a lot like Peter Olivola... who is easily the biggest horse's ass in the SCCA ...***

Matt, I enjoy the one on one with you at the race track & I also enjoy the one on one with Peter at the race track. Even when Peter is sitting within a small group for a driver infraction after a race he deals in FACTS.

Have Fun
David

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by lateapex911:


Who are you?? What background do you have in the club?? Do you function as a officer in any way? Are you a driver?

Two days later, and the silence is deafening...
All quiet on the (mid?) western front, it seems.....

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[This message has been edited by lateapex911 (edited April 28, 2005).]

[Bill Miller]

Originally posted by lateapex911:
Two days later, and the silence is deafening...
All quiet on the (mid?) western front, it sees.....

You expected something less from a coward??


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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608