IT going national? Could it happen? No way? Well Maybe?

[Ron Earp]

In comparison, how large are Prod fields at events? Prod seems small to me, but maybe I am going to the wrong races.

------------------
Ron Earp
NC Region
Ford Lightning
RF GT40 Replica
Jensen-Healey ITS
1/2 a 260Z ITS

[racer14itc]

If IT went national I think you could cut the car counts in half. I used to race ITC, and ran about 10 races per year. When I switched to prod, I ran 8-10 regional races per year. Then I started running nationals, and run 5-6 races per year plus the Runoffs. I don't run REGIONALS any more - too expensive to run both series during the year. Also remember that I can't realistically run 10 nationals a year, due to the fact there aren't as many during the year (10 nationals vs. 20+ SARRC races here in the SEDIV), and the tracks are scattered all over the division and they don't hold many nationals at the same track during the year (1, 2 or at most 3 - Roebling).

I wish IT would be a national class, it would be fun to watch (and maybe race in it again). But please remember this isn't a "IT is not national and it's because the prod fields are small and won't give up their spot" thing. There are twenty OTHER classes in national racing, a lot of which have smaller participation than production. Why do some of you hate production cars/classes so much? As a prod driver, I don't understand it. There seems to be a real animosity or jealousy here. I am not doing anything to keep IT a regional class, so please don't paint us prod racers all as "bad guys". I used to be one of "YOU GUYS"!

The grass always seems greener on the other side of the fence too. Ask yourself: why do you want IT to become a national class? So you can race for a national championship? So you race MORE during the year? (I wish I had the $$$ to run more races) So IT can have some sort of "legitimacy" in SCCA's eyes?

Trust me, if IT went national, it wouldn't be all rosey. The cost of being competitive would shoot up, 80% of the IT cars finishing up front in nationals would be DQ'd for everything from missing washer bottles to missing passenger door glass to umpteen other "non-performance" items, not to mention the blatent cheating going on. A lot of participants would disappear very quickly from national racing because of the non-compliance issue. Why do you think some fast IT cars don't show up at the ARRC??? Spec Miata will suffer through this next season in its first season of national racing, you watch. My prediction is that the SM winner in '06 doesn't make it through the tech shed. We'll see...

So in summary, I'm for IT becoming a national class. But I think that it wouldn't be as great as some of you think it will be. Lastly, quit picking on the prod guys as if they're your enemy. What did they ever do to you??

MC
#14 GP VW Scirocco


[This message has been edited by racer14itc (edited April 19, 2005).]

[Knestis]

Ack! Prod guy! Prod guy!

K

[gsbaker]

Originally posted by ddewhurst:
We have about five months out of 12 to partake in this wonderful event..........

Have Fun
David

Hey Dave, trade ya for a hurricane.



------------------
Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com

[wbp]

Mark, you had an excellently prepared ITC car and now you have the same type car excellently prepared for limited prep Production. For consideration on this subject, could you tell us the difference in preparation costs? Not dollars of course, just precentage.

[ddewhurst]

***Hey Dave, trade ya for a hurricane.***

Greg, being that those hurricanes suck do ya think guy could guide one of them over a hole in the ice & suck the fish out of the lake ? Dynamite works great for fishing for Trout in a stream. Ya find a big ol bend in the stream, lite the dynamite which is secured to a weight, drop the thing in the stream, run down stream & wait for the Trout to surface & flow to ya. Learned this from an ol boy out of the hills of........... Can't say where because some of those people are IT racers.

Have Fun
David

ps: Sorry for thaken this thread on a tangent.

[seckerich]

Who says you need to change anything but the schedule at the runoffs to include IT? Just take the top XXX number of cars from each regions races as we do now for points and let the top ones go to the runoffs. They manage to stretch it out forever as it is and would have no problem fitting a few more groups in. Keep the IT classes as regional until the runoffs and just send the invitations to the top in points. No worries about the overcrowding at nationals or loss of competitors at regionals. Last I checked all the same classes as national PLUS all the regional only classes run on any given regional weekend and we get done by dark. Only difference is we actually see the other cars in our class!!! Win - Win situation for participation numbers at the runoffs.

Steve Eckerich
ITS Speedsource RX7

[racer14itc]

Originally posted by wbp:
Mark, you had an excellently prepared ITC car and now you have the same type car excellently prepared for limited prep Production. For consideration on this subject, could you tell us the difference in preparation costs? Not dollars of course, just precentage.

Bill, don't be silly, my wife reads this forum...I can't do that!

Just kidding, she doesn't care what I spend...

Racing/building a G-prod car vs. an ITC car (Scirocco), the preparation cost difference is in primarily two areas: transmission and engine.

The suspension on my GP car is actually CHEAPER than the one on my ITC if you can believe that. I use non-adjustable race threaded body Bilsteins on the GP car and used special double adjustable Konis inserts w/ coil over sleeves on the ITC car (thanks to the silly IT rules...). The Bilsteins are about 1/2 of what the Koni setup was.

Anyway, the transmission is more expensive on the prod car because of the alternate gears that are permitted. One time expense though, after that the maintenance costs are the same. The gearset costs about $300 more than a stock ITC gearset. (It's made from a combination of ITC and Rabbit GTI transmission components).

Engine: definitely more expensive to BUILD, but maintenance is about the same. I just tore down the engine I have been using for three seasons. In those three seasons I put in one set of rings. Camshafts: $125 vs. $100 for a G-cam for ITC. The biggest difference in build costs in the motor is the cylinder head work (porting, etc.), race valves, lighter valve train components, etc. Probably about $1000 more to build the prod cylinder head vs. the ITC head. However, limited prep would end up only a little more than an ITC head. The rods are stock rods, lightened, polished and balanced. I had my ITC rods balanced (not lightened, that would be against the rules...), so the difference is in the labor to lighten and polish the rods. I use the same ARP rod bolts, ARP head studs and ARP main studs in both engines.

Fuel injection system: no difference. Same setup works for both. I hand polished the throttle body for the prod car myself: cost = $5 for abrasive supplies.

Tires can be slightly more expensive, but only if you want to spend the money. The hardest Hoosier slick compond (R55) will last every bit as long as a Hoosier R3S03 did, if properly heat cycled.

Race gas is required in prod, so that's about $30 more per weekend (10 gals @$5 VS. $2 per gallon).

You could build my car today for less than $15K, and it finished in the top 10 at the Runoffs last year, and I'm hoping to do better than that this year. Try doing that in an ITS or even a Spec Miata at the ARRC (or at the Runoffs next season in the case of the Spec Miata).

A limited prep 1st gen Honda CRXSi (that also runs in GP) could probably be built for the same $15K and finish in the top 10 at the Runoffs in GP as well.

In 2001 I won the ITC SARRC championship (with a little luck). Over the span of a few weeks that winter, I did the following things to the car to convert it to a GProd car:

Took out the 1.6 ITC engine, and put in a former 1.5 ITC engine I bought for $400 (built by Harry Puckett). I decked the block .035" (at a cost of about $50), put an IT legal cylinder head on it with a mild race cam and heavy duty valve springs. Total Cost: $650

Put on a set of Heim ends on the end of stock VW steering arms, and drilled the steering arms for 1/2" bolts. Total cost: about $100. This bumpsteered the car.

Close ratio transmission installed in ITC gearbox w/ limited slip (about $300 in parts and labor to build the 5th gearset). Total (marginal) cost: $500 (transmission needed a rebuild anyway).

Took off the bumpers, headlights, door glass, winding mechanisms, etc. Stripped the dash, interior the rest of the way. Made some flat plates for headlights out of scrap aluminum. Cost: $0

Put Hoosier R55 slicks on my ITC wheels, cost difference: $0 from a new set of R3S03 which I would have bought anyway.

Made some rear window straps from 1" aluminum from Lowe's. Cost: about $5.

Already had the fire system in the ITC car.

The car went on to win 6 out 7 GP SARRC races in 2002, and went 3-5 seconds a lap faster than I ran in ITC at every track I went to that season.

The exact same thing could probably be done with an 1st gen Civic or CRX Si as well.

MC


------------------
Mark Coffin
#14 GP BSI Racing/Action Digital/Airborn Coatings/Krispy Kreme VW Scirocco
http://pages.prodigy.net/Scirocco14gp



[This message has been edited by racer14itc (edited April 19, 2005).]

[Bill Miller]

Originally posted by wbp:
Mark, you had an excellently prepared ITC car and now you have the same type car excellently prepared for limited prep Production. For consideration on this subject, could you tell us the difference in preparation costs? Not dollars of course, just precentage.

Just to clarify, Mark's GP car is a full-prep car.



------------------
MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[RacerBill]

Bill Miller:

I did not mean to imply that two levels of competition (National vs Regional) meant two skill levels. And I strongly apologize to any drivers who took my statement that way. But rather two levels of committment, and opportunity. I agree that the majority of cars that are classed today should be allowed to race in both National and Regional races. That might necessitate the combining of some of the less active classes (SCCA has already set president by combining GT4 & GT5). But as I said earlier, the classes will continue to evolve, as they have over the 60 years that SCCA has been in existance.

Six regional races with a resonable level of competency qualifies a racer for a National license. The GCR also states that one does not even have to run any National races to keep their National license. Therefore the National/Reginal license distinction exists primarily to insure that drivers have a certain level of experince when racing in National races. So, since running Nationals is not a requirement to keep ones license, National races are in effect qualifying races, and Regionals, non-qualifying. At least that is my opinion.

And this is my thought on allowing IT classes at National races. Increasing the number and variety of venues to race at, along with the exposure of the runoffs will bring more cars and drivers (especially new members) in IT.

Slightly off thread, and not to be derogatory to Production car owners or drivers, but look at the intent of Production classes thirty years ago and where they are today. So what's to say that the original intent of IT (that it remain Regional only) is cast in stone and can't change?

Completely off thread - I managed to pass both of the guys I race regularly with every Monday night (they are usually 1 to 1.5 seconds a lap faster than I am, and one is a SCCA National champion) in our last heat last night. Yeah!!!!! Can;t wait to get the car back from the chassis shop.


------------------
Bill Stevens
Mbr 103106
BnS Racing
83 ITA Shelby Dodge Charger

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by racer14itc:
I wish IT would be a national class, it would be fun to watch (and maybe race in it again). But please remember this isn't a "IT is not national and it's because the prod fields are small and won't give up their spot" thing. .... Why do some of you hate production cars/classes so much? As a prod driver, I don't understand it. There seems to be a real animosity or jealousy here. I am not doing anything to keep IT a regional class, so please don't paint us prod racers all as "bad guys". I used to be one of "YOU GUYS"!

MC, it's just a lack of big picture thinking...no animosity intended...I don't think so at least! Many IT guys rarely see national car counts, but they DO see big IT fields, and at the same races, their closest cousins, the Prod guys, have maybe 12 cars total. Then they see the Runoffs on TV, and the whole Prod thing looks a little sketchy there as well. Add to that that the old Prod cars are often seen as the poster children of the "old school good old boys are whats wrong with SCCA" attitude, and you have the origin of the bias, I bet. Trust me...you are preaching to the choir when you tell me that other classes have issues as well.

....80% of the IT cars finishing up front in nationals would be DQ'd for everything from missing washer bottles to missing passenger door glass to umpteen other "non-performance" items, not to mention the blatent cheating going on. A lot of participants would disappear very quickly from national racing because of the non-compliance issue.

And the problem is??? Listen...if a guy quits racing altogether because he has to go to the trouble of putting back some door glass he shouldn't have taken out in the first place, then he has issues! Sure .....spend $10K a year racing but call foul over $15??? And I would be THRILLED to get rid of the blatant cheaters!! Good freaken riddance! I won't get into it here, but yes, some of the rules are dorky, but in the end, they are minor issues in the grand scheme of things.

Why do you think some fast IT cars don't show up at the ARRC???

And they are not missed. Keep in mind though that even at the ARRCs running a hugely cheated up motor is like shooting fish in a barrel... a little more close scrutiny couldn't hurt.

So in summary, I'm for IT becoming a national class. But I think that it wouldn't be as great as some of you think it will be.

I agree, but for different reasons.

1- Big picture stuff.....the whole reg/nat thing is thorny, because of the SCCA/Region infrastructure. Re-orging the whole thing could spell financial trouble for certain regions. There is even an up, and a downside to that as well!

2- Don't think the Runoffs will grow to include more classes!!!! NO way...if anything, it needs to shrink...it's really too long now. I bet the Grand Poobahs would be thrilled to find a way to cut it to 3 days...maybe top 21 classes go to the big show??

3- I still think that the whole documentation thing for the older and more obscure cars is an issue. I can't remember the specifics, but there are cars out there that are getting a freebie, or gift, in the cam dept due to lack of factory documentation. Wish I could cite a good example, but it IS an issue.

All in all, I think it would benefit the club to do away with the silly two level system, and to feature the best racing at the biggest, most public club level event.

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[This message has been edited by lateapex911 (edited April 19, 2005).]

[Geo]

Originally posted by ddewhurst:
***What's winter?***

Winter would be that time of the year when the temp is maybe 5* below zero, we all prepare the fire wood, chairs, food, drinks & sit out in the beautiful winter wonder land watching that sparkling white stuff gently fall out of the sky. We have about five months out of 12 to partake in this wonderful event..........

Have Fun
David

ps: Then with half a snout full we fire up our IT legal snow blowers & blow that white shit clear to HELL. & it melts.

David, I don't think you've ever made me laugh so much!

Prosit!


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[Bill Miller]

Originally posted by RacerBill:
Bill Miller:

I did not mean to imply that two levels of competition (National vs Regional) meant two skill levels. And I strongly apologize to any drivers who took my statement that way. But rather two levels of committment, and opportunity. I agree that the majority of cars that are classed today should be allowed to race in both National and Regional races. That might necessitate the combining of some of the less active classes (SCCA has already set president by combining GT4 & GT5). But as I said earlier, the classes will continue to evolve, as they have over the 60 years that SCCA has been in existance.

Fair enough Bill. But, to clarify, GT 4 and GT 5 were combined into GT L (GT Lite) as a way to keep those cars running Nationals. There is a requirement that a National class meet participation levels, to remain a National class. These classes didn't, and rather than remove their National status, they were combined to make one class. I don't know all the details, but adjustments were made to both classes to provide a level playing field.

And I always found that interesting about a National license. You never have to run a National race in order to get, or keep, a National license. I bet there are a lot of racers out there that hold National licenses, that haven't raced a National in years (yet continue to race Regionals).



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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[zracre]

If IT pays the bulk of the bills for scca then why cant we get better policing...i remember the cheating a few years back in ITB in florida region and CFR...cant get more blatant than that!!! if you leave it up to the drivers to protest that will not always happen as someone will be more prone to just say well if they are doing it i will too!! instead of protest. i think they should set a small budget for regions to police the cars better...atlanta has a real strict tech shed and id like to see more of that...better coverage of the ARRC in the sports car magazine would help too....maybe even a quick mention of IT (and all regional only classes) and a quick video blurb during the runoffs coverage to show that there is a way to race your car on a budget and it does not have to be national...while im rambling on i think they also need to give workers more incentive...without them there is no racing...

Evan Darling
ITA Integra

[ddewhurst]

***And I always found that interesting about a National license. You never have to run a National race in order to get, or keep, a National license. I bet there are a lot of racers out there that hold National licenses, that haven't raced a National in years (yet continue to race Regionals).***

Bill, if a person is a Regional racer & has intent to do some National racing how do you do that without a National licence ? It takes 4 Regionals to keep the National licence current. I hold a National licence so that if a situation ride would become available I could do the race.

Have Fun
David

[Bill Miller]

Dave,

I understand what you're saying. I just said that I find it interesting. I don't think we really need to have a Regional / National license grade difference. And now that I think about it a bit more, why are there different standards? If it's ok for someone to get a comp. license after 2 rookie races, why shouldn't they be allowed to race in any race (Regional or National)? It's ok to turn someone lose in a Regional w/ a GT1 Corvette, after 2 races, but not a National? This whole 2-tier thing needs to really go away.

------------------
MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[ddewhurst]

****And now that I think about it a bit more, why are there different standards?****

Bill, all of we IT upstarts want to screw with TRADITION.........

[rjohnson999]

You ran this same idea over a year ago. It was bogus then. It's bogus now. There is a significant difference between National and Regional racing in most classes in much of the country. We have national rules to make it possible for drivers and stewards to move freely around the country. Whatever your local situation is, it doesn't justify the change you're proposing.

Originally posted by Bill Miller:
Dave,

I understand what you're saying. I just said that I find it interesting. I don't think we really need to have a Regional / National license grade difference. And now that I think about it a bit more, why are there different standards? If it's ok for someone to get a comp. license after 2 rookie races, why shouldn't they be allowed to race in any race (Regional or National)? It's ok to turn someone lose in a Regional w/ a GT1 Corvette, after 2 races, but not a National? This whole 2-tier thing needs to really go away.

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by rjohnson999:
You ran this same idea over a year ago. It was bogus then. It's bogus now.

Fine....tell us why....

There is a significant difference between National and Regional racing in most classes in much of the country.

And that "significant difference" is?? More? better? faster? what?? Enlighten us...

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[This message has been edited by lateapex911 (edited April 20, 2005).]

[gran racing]

I too am very curious what the difference is. It's interesting especially when you look at people who run IT and World Challenge or other Pro racing.

My biggest concern would be the possible increase in costs to be competitive. I would love to see things done to make it even more affordable for people to get into. I guess I just don't see the benefits being worthwhile the risks and possible issues that would arise from the change. Yes, I would love to see the ARRC (NARRC and other regional championships that may exist) to grow in popularity and exposure.

Without going off topic too much, but since it was mentioned...it is too bad when people say that the only reason a person doesn't run the ARRC is because it is probably an illegal car. I would agree if the person was local to Atlanta and never showed, but for many of us the length of tow makes the event less enticing. Yes, I'm fairly sure I'll go down there this year but future years? (24 hours total plus of towing doesn't sound like much fun to me) Oh, I must be planning on adding the illegal goodies after this season. It is too bad there isn't more policing in other events to avoid this assumption amoung other things.

Just curious, is IT racing much different in other areas besides the N.E.? Maybe it is and I'm just viewing IT it based on what my experiences are here.

------------------
Dave Gran
NER ITB #13
'87 Honda Prelude si