IT going national? Could it happen? No way? Well Maybe?

[RSTPerformance]

IN the Northeast car counts are almoast to high, we couldn't handle another 4 race groupes in a National at NHIS or Lime Rock. And yes I think that "IT" would bring in 3 or 4 more run groupes as the fields would all be packed after a year or two.

The current set up is "best" IMO. Just make IT rules legal in prodction for those that want to go to "the runoffs." yeah you wont win, but you will have fun. If you want a championship continue what we have, and make the "local" championships more prestiege and make the ARRC the true regional classes national championship.

Just my opionion (although I hate it) based on our local area...

Raymond

[Matt Rowe]

Originally posted by Bill Miller:
The folks that want to go to "The Show" would run the Nationals, and the folks that don't have the big budgets, and don't care if they go to the Runoffs or not, would continue to run the Regionals.

Even at regionals I typically see a couple of national drivers show up to shake their cars down and get a little extra time. One in particular comes to mind who intentionally starts in the back and hangs back to avoid any first lap stupidity and the proceeds to win the race. With this happening the relatively low budget regional guy either has to start spending more money to win, or settle for second, or third, or whatever place is left after the national racers finish.

I still not sure why we need to go to a national class. Especially since many cars are already classed in prod or better yet as LP Prod. The minimum prep differences between IT and LP are not that big and probably no more costly than the increase in cost we would see from IT going national. So an option alreay exists but by changing IT we stand a big chance of hurting the class participation and raising the cost to everyone.


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~Matt Rowe
ITA Shelby Charger
MARRS #96

[This message has been edited by Matt Rowe (edited April 18, 2005).]

[Bill Miller]

Originally posted by Matt Rowe:
The minimum prep differences between IT and LP are not that big and probably no more costly than the increase in cost we would see from IT going national. So an option alreay exists but by changing IT we stand a big chance of hurting the class participation and raising the cost to everyone.

Don't kid yourself Matt. Ask Don Barrack what they've got into their l-p HP Scirocco. And I don't buy that it would increase costs for everyone. There are plenty of Prod folks that don't have the tons of money in their cars that the top National guys do. They run Regionals, and have fun.


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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[Greg Amy]

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">I like the idea of having the top folks, in the top classes, going to the big show.</font>

AMEN, Part Deaux.

I'm not that big on "The Runoffs" (been there, done that, got the medal) but I don't like the idea of "real" classes and "sub" classes in SCCA. What's the point? I have no clue as to the origin or Regional and National classes, but whatever it was the time is long gone.

And anyone who thinks that going National will increase the costs of building top-flight IT cars (or conversely that not being National reduces costs) ain't looking around very hard. Open your eyes.

[Knestis]

Historically, I think that "regional" and "divisional" championship events came first (with the latter qualifying drivers to the national championships), and the concept of "Regional" and "National" CLASSES came later.

Really, the distinction applies only to IT and those region-specific classes. I can speak with authority on the common discussion about IT when it was conceived as a national-rules, regional-only category, since I was around then. The thinking was that this policy and the "no guarantee of competitivenes" clause, that kept the category out of the performance adjustment game, would preserve IT as a low-pressure, low-cost, entry stepping stone to "bigger, better" classes.

Problem is, IT makes more sense than most of those other options, so it has grown beyond them in terms of participation.

K

[Ron Earp]

Kirk I think your last sentence says it all. I have no idea what it was like "back then" or even last year, but a quick look at the rundown of cars at the recent National at CMP shows not many production cars. I don't have it in front of me, but some of those classes only had 4 cars, many between 4 and 8. Is that fun to race against 4 cars? At the same race ITS had low turnout, but still had 3 times as many cars. Ditto for A and SM was decently populated. I know I complain about the age of IT cars (and don't help by driving an old one) but I'd rather race an "old" 260Z, JH, or 1st,2nd Gen RX7 than a Spridget from 196X with 17:1 compression that blows up with frightening regularity.

Maybe the IT is starting to be recognized as where lots of people race and as a large percentage of income for races?

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Ron Earp
NC Region
Ford Lightning
RF GT40 Replica
Jensen-Healey ITS
1/2 a 260Z ITS

[Matt Rowe]

Originally posted by Bill Miller:

Don't kid yourself Matt. Ask Don Barrack what they've got into their l-p HP Scirocco. And I don't buy that it would increase costs for everyone. There are plenty of Prod folks that don't have the tons of money in their cars that the top National guys do. They run Regionals, and have fun.

Bill, maybe you missed it but I said the MINIMUM changes neccesary to turn an IT to LP. I specifically said that because you can go have fun in a national class by spending only a little extra money. But, if you make IT a national class then you are going to relegate everyone that doesn't have a national scale budget to an also ran. And yes, money usually buys victories, but being regional only does keep some of the big money out of IT.

There are guys with limited budgets running regionals and having fun in production. But wait isn't that what IT is supposed to be for, fun and relatively cheap. Maybe some of those production guys could tell us if they would like to have a chance at a win at a regional if the national level cars were exlcuded. I'm willing to bet they would. And that is essentially what we already have in IT.

Maybe I missed it, but why do we feel like we need to change what is already a popular format? Is it so that people can go to Runoffs?

Finally, consider SS, a class with VERY limited modifcations. But the cost to compete is so high. Why? Because as a national class more is at stake. We all know that rules don't limit spending. What limits spending is the return on investment that keeps big money out of a series that only offers 5 dollar trophies. But offer the chance to be a "National Champion" and a line to starts to form of people willing to buy that.

A $37,500 BMW is a bit much but how many are there in the country? If you go national that number will at least triple which means the little guy is no longer fighting for third, he's fighting for 8th or 12th or worse. It may still be fun, but it's not as fun and there is already a place for those guys to run.

I just can't believe this is the first discussion about a rule change I've seen in awhile that doesn't tell the guy to move to Prod. Instead were saying we should turn IT into Prod.

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~Matt Rowe
ITA Shelby Charger
MARRS #96

[Knestis]

If you want to run Nationals, just move to Production!

There. I said it.

Seriously though. I hadn't really asked myself the "what if?" question, since it's so damned far-fetched to me but I can picture both doors opening if IT became a National class:

Door #1 - Some people spend more money on their IT cars so they can "go to the big show."

Door #2 - Those same people stop running for regional championships (doing fewer "local" races), taking their money and the advantages it purchases away from "just have fun" racers like me.

This vision sort of assumes nothing else major changes, like the elimination of the Regional/National distinction.

Now, looking at things with a new perspective? FIA rallying used to use a coefficient system that I thought was cool, granting multipliers to points earned based on the stage miles of the event. World rounds were "coefficient 20" events, that counted heavily toward continental championships. Smaller events had coefficients of 1, 2, 5, or whatever so you earned 10, 20, or 50 points for winning your class at one, against 200 for winning a world round.

How about all club races counting as points earners to championships. You could run for a Regional title by joining the region and accumulating points from races within (and maybe a couple out of) your region. Join as many regions as you want, run for as many titles as you can afford.

Each Region could host one Super Regional showcase spectator kind of event, for which some multiplier could be applied - like 4x points - to attract really deep fields.

Ditto Divisional championships - counting any/all events earned in a division with points qualifying drivers to their respective divisional run-off event, late in the season. Assign that a 10x multiplier (or whatever) so it is necessary to run it to win the title but impossible to win without running a full season, too. You don't win a divisional title by winning that race: You do it by accumulating points, more of which are available at that semi-big show.

Those total divisional points then qualify drivers to the RubOffs. It would be impossible to cherry pick a few events to qualify in a well-subscribed class. This is a "new life" event, where points are out the window and it's Katie bar the door - necessary because divisions won't all offer the same number of point-scoring opportunities.

Further, only the top XX classes in terms of participation would qualify to the Really Big Show each year, creating a Darwin-driven kind of system that perpetuated only the most popular classes, leaving the others available to play in.

Isn't there supposed to be a damn strategic plan or something? This suggestion assumes certain first principles that I think are valuable but it's likely that there is TONS of room for disagreement on them.

Kirk (who is kind of pissed off that he is now starting to care about this issue)

[This message has been edited by Knestis (edited April 18, 2005).]

[RSTPerformance]

Kirk-

I do like your format for National races... And I like the Idea of IT being a National class, but I can't help but wonder... would it really be for the best of the average guy/gal who just comes out to have fun???

Love the idea, but remember we are no longer racing regionals for fun (with your idea)... The few at the top that care will be racing for that championship, every point counts and the little guy/gal better get out of the way...

Raymond

[Bill Miller]

Originally posted by Matt Rowe:

There are guys with limited budgets running regionals and having fun in production. But wait isn't that what IT is supposed to be for, fun and relatively cheap. Maybe some of those production guys could tell us if they would like to have a chance at a win at a regional if the national level cars were exlcuded. I'm willing to bet they would. And that is essentially what we already have in IT.

Matt,

I'll give you that, you don't HAVE to spend a ton to go from l-p to Prod. But you do if you want to win. But, you already have to do that if you want to win in IT, especially ITS and to somewhat of a lesser degree, ITA. And yes, IT IS supposed to be fun and inexpensive (at least that's what the book says). Sorry to say, but that's gone by the boards, if you want to win.

Finally, consider SS, a class with VERY limited modifcations. But the cost to compete is so high. Why? Because as a national class more is at stake. We all know that rules don't limit spending. What limits spending is the return on investment that keeps big money out of a series that only offers 5 dollar trophies. But offer the chance to be a "National Champion" and a line to starts to form of people willing to buy that.

Another thing that contributes to the higher cost of SS is that the donor cars are usually a lot of money. Not to mention that they have a defined, finite life span. I don't know what's a base BMW Z4 w/ the 2.5 liter motor go for? How about a new Miata (which you probably won't buy, if you want to win SSB this year)? To say that SS is so expensive because it's a National class is not really accurate. If it's about 'buying' a National Championship, a FV or SRF are cheaper.

A $37,500 BMW is a bit much but how many are there in the country? If you go national that number will at least triple which means the little guy is no longer fighting for third, he's fighting for 8th or 12th or worse. It may still be fun, but it's not as fun and there is already a place for those guys to run.

Probably a lot more than you think. Look at the top ITS cars in the various Regional Series along the East coast (MARRS, SARRC, NARRC, etc.) There are probably a good 10 - 12 right there. I really don't think the folks that will spend the money to win a National Championship are also going to spend extra money just to go win a bunch of $5 trophies by racing against a group of (percieved) lower talented drivers in lesser prepared cars.

I just can't believe this is the first discussion about a rule change I've seen in awhile that doesn't tell the guy to move to Prod. Instead were saying we should turn IT into Prod.

Nobody has said anything about turning IT into Prod. Making IT National doesn't make it Prod. Nice try, but you'll have to do better than that.



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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[Anubis]

If this were to happen you would wind up with 8-9 group nationals in some areas. Very very very tough to get in before DST kicks in not to mention 75 minutes more for a weekend(along with 75 minutes kicking in next year for SM nationally).

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Lance Snyder
Atlanta Region F&C

RIP Dimebag- August 20, 1966 to December 8th, 2004.

[lateapex911]

There are some very interesting scenarios that could pan out here...

Remember, the original post said ALL classes would be considered for the Runoffs, based on participation numbers by August.

First, I would think the regional/national distinction would likely be dropped merely due to scheduling issues.

Second, yes, IT could be more expensive, but I am not sure winning would cost dramatically more. PLACING would cost more. A real National Chamionship centrally located would likely draw more entries than the south east defacto IT championships that draws some very interested racers. I imagine a podium would become a tad more difficult.

Third....there would be a pleasing bit of fallout. If you are a driver in a...let's say.... a poorly subscribed Prod class, and this system comes along...wouldn't it make sense to rethink your ride? 15 car fields with 7 second covering the field at the Runoffs would be history...no more easy top ten for the "run the minimum races you have to per year to make the Runoffs" driver.

Gaining berth might actually mean something in all the classes.

So, IT might actually gain drivers from other poorly subscribed classes.

But for the guy who just wants to run for "fun" ...it won't cost a dime more. Right now, we have 25 car ITA fields in the NE....coming in midpack will cost the same...but 12th might be 16th...

To me, it's the prep level that makes IT a popular destination...we hear all the time how guys are entering the category to have fun, and aren't concerned about running at the front...why would that change?

Keep the prep level under control, make the classing structure as fair as possible, and "budget racing for fun" can co-exist with National Championship racing just fine....

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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[This message has been edited by lateapex911 (edited April 18, 2005).]

[Geo]

Originally posted by ddewhurst:
Dam, I thought winter was over.

Have Fun
David

What's winter?


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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[zracre]

i think the arrc is a pretty big deal and nationally known. the level of competition is awesome..if people just want to race cars and have fun there will always be a place to race but it always cost money to win no matter what...
if IT goes national, regional classes will only have a handful of cars to race...it will definitely add more competition with big spenders, but also recognition. SM is going but just how much power can you get out of a nationally prepared SM? people spend a fortune on sunbelt motors (or any good SM shop builder)...i think it would add to the club...just my opinion...

Evan Darling
ITA Integra

[Mattberg]

Just wondering why a distinction needs to be made between National and regional. I think you'll always have guys that spend lots and guys who try and squeak by. It's been like that forever. But why not just create a race organization, National in scope, and pick the top 22-24 classes at the end of the season. Those that don't make the big show go to the ARRC. Sort of like the NCCA basketball tournament. You don't make the 64 you still get a shot at the NIT.

[zracre]

wouldnt it be neat if you could run production with an it car?? why wont they let them run in their IT state in prod?? prod cars will have the advantage with slicks and such we would still have to run dot tires...i know the roll cage requirements are higher for prod cars but still the speeds of a good ITS or ITA car are on par, maybe a little slower that its prod counterpart...just a thoought...so IT drivers can log national races and maybe cross over....just another silly thought

Evan Darling
ITA Integra

[RacerBill]

Wow, this thread is awesome! There have been some really good ideas presented, and everyone is behaving themselves. Every idea has good points and not so good points, depending on how one looks at it.

But the ideas presented all have far reaching consequences for SCCA in general. So a lot of factors need to be taken into account. Someone mentioned a strategic plan. Yes, a three-year and 5-year plan must be in place to guide our decisions. Then also take into account the number of classes, run groups, available tracks, available dates, (feel free to add to this list, it is not all inclusive!), etc. Factor in the workers needed to run all the events, too.

In any event, I believe that while the concept of qualifying/non-qualifying races has merit, the National/Regional division serves the club better. With two distinct levels of competition, those drivers who are looking to start a career in racing have a better chance of being recognized. Kind of like the major and minor leagues in other sports.

While a couple of years ago, I would have really wanted to go to the National Runoffs, at this time I have set as one of my racing goals, to race at the ARRC. I believe that IT is popular enough to have national champions (and other regional level national champions, as well).

Anyway, this has been a fine discussion. But we are only one part of the club. We all need to discuss these issues with our local, area, division, and national officers, as well as the competitors in other classes. As we have hatched some different perspectives, I am sure that there are others that have additional ideas. We need to remember to keep the discussions on a positive note, non-confrontational, and respect the ideas of others.

Winter is really over - just have too much time on my hands while the cage is being built built!!!!

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Bill Stevens
Mbr 103106
BnS Racing
83 ITA Shelby Dodge Charger

[ddewhurst]

***What's winter?***

Winter would be that time of the year when the temp is maybe 5* below zero, we all prepare the fire wood, chairs, food, drinks & sit out in the beautiful winter wonder land watching that sparkling white stuff gently fall out of the sky. We have about five months out of 12 to partake in this wonderful event..........

Have Fun
David

ps: Then with half a snout full we fire up our IT legal snow blowers & blow that white shit clear to HELL. & it melts.

[Bill Miller]

In any event, I believe that while the concept of qualifying/non-qualifying races has merit, the National/Regional division serves the club better. With two distinct levels of competition, those drivers who are looking to start a career in racing have a better chance of being recognized. Kind of like the major and minor leagues in other sports.

Bill,

That's where the flaw in the logic is, the Regional / National distinction does not mean that their are two distinct levels of competition. Especially not when you have one very popular category that only gets to play in one arena.

If anything, I feel that making all categories National (or better yet, just have Club Racing categories that have a rules section (Competition Specifications) in the GCR. All such cars are eligible to compete in National Championship qualifying races. Other, more localized categories (e.g. ITE, SRX7, RS, etc.) would be allowed to compete in the non-qualifying races in the Regions / Divisions that recognized those categories.

With some of the quality drivers/cars out there in IT today, you can't say that Regional racing is a lower level of competition than National racing. That would be like saying that you're not at the top of the heap unless you drive one of the fastest types of cars (e.g. GT-1, FA, CSR, etc.).

As far as the argument that IT cars should just be allowed to run as Prod cars, at Nationals, how does that benefit anyone? If anything, it's a poor attempt at a cheap fix for an arbitrarry problem. Prod cars are Prod cars and IT cars are IT cars. They have different levels of prep, why would you expect them to compete against each other? Now, I know someone will say that you already have that in Prod vis-a-vis full-prep vs. limited-prep. But a full-prep Prod car is closer to a limited-prep Prod car than an IT car is to a limited-prep Prod car. Not to mention, that I think you stand a better chance of doing away w/ the Regional / National distinction than getting IT cars to run as Prod cars w/o any changes.

IT pays a big portion of the freight for Club Racing, it's time that it was given the same status as the rest of the categories in the GCR. Not to mention that I'm sure you would see 40+ car fields in ITS / ITA, and probably 30+ (maybe 40+) car fields in ITB / ITC, if they were at the Runoffs. BTW, how big were the IT fields at the '04 ARRC?

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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[DavidM]

04 ARRC:

28 cars in ITB/ITC
32 cars in ITA/IT7
28 in ITS


By the way, I think anybody who says they race "just for fun" better stop and smell what they are shoveling. If you were just racing for fun then you wouldn't care if that guy in front of you beats you or not. In fact, why would you even try to pass anyone? You might as well do Solo 1. Racing is by nature competitive. That's why it's called racing. My main goal is to have fun, but I sure as hell want to finish as high up as I can.

David