IT going national? Could it happen? No way? Well Maybe?

[Bill Miller]

Originally posted by rjohnson999:
You ran this same idea over a year ago. It was bogus then. It's bogus now. There is a significant difference between National and Regional racing in most classes in much of the country. We have national rules to make it possible for drivers and stewards to move freely around the country. Whatever your local situation is, it doesn't justify the change you're proposing.

Yeah, I'd like to hear the reasons as well. And what's w/ the "move freely around country" comment? I can't even begin to figure out where that came from. Last I looked, didn't matter what Region you ran out of, the ITS/A/B/C rules were the same, and it didn't matter what your Region of record was, as long as you had a valid Regional Competition license, you can run at any Regional, at any track in the country. That like some pretty 'free movement' opportunity to me.


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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[Knestis]

Originally posted by rjohnson999:
... It was bogus then. It's bogus now. There is a significant difference between National and Regional racing in most classes in much of the country. We have national rules to make it possible for drivers and stewards to move freely around the country. Whatever your local situation is, it doesn't justify the change you're proposing.

I'll go a step beyond what some other responses have been. The above is just wrong in a lot of ways.

Any differences between Regional and National racing are artificial, created only by the arbitrary distinction made between the two. I could do either with any number of cars, for any number of reasons, on any kind of budget so there is NO substantive difference, that I can figure out. There are policy outcomes and unanticipated consequences that arise out of the distinction but if the two-tiered system went away, so would competitors' responses to them.

(This is NOT to suggest that a different plan wouldn't result in different consequences, of course.)

The fact that the bulk of Club Racing classes are eligible to run both Regionals and Nationals pretty much makes it clear that the "portability" issue isn't driving the division.

K

[eprodrx7]

You are all forgetting that National races are on average twice as long as regionals. I see this as the largest hurdle in adding IT to the Nat. program. Then again we could loose a few Nat. classes also...

[zracre]

We race touring cars not showroom stock cars...any way you slice it racing is expensive...we are allowed to modify our motors...any racing class where motor mods are permitted it is going to be expensive to be competitive...if you race the same car for many years expect it to become less competitive with the newer cars in class...and not complain that the newer cars are pushing the older cars out...I sold my ITB GTI (A1) because it was getting less competitive with years...i cut my losses and built a competitive 1992 integra on a budget. could I afford it? no but did i do it anyways? yes. That is the nature of the sport...If you want affordable get a SM...a good driver can get past a 8 to 10 hp difference between a used motor and a sunbelt motor...and it is a spec class...that is why the field is usually separated by fractions...

Evan Darling
ITA Integra

[Geo]

Evan, even competitive SS engine and SM engines are expensive. They can be balanced and blueprinted as well. You just have to do it without machining. It's more expensive because it's done with a parts bin (careful parts selction).

I don't believe SM is inexpensive. Sure it's inexpensive if you just want to make up the numbers. IT is inexpensive if you have that philosoply. But if you want to run up front it's still going to be expensive. More so I'll bet now that SM is going national.


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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[rjohnson999]

You guys may want to rehash this. I don't. Go find the original discussion.

[lateapex911]

Then why'd you bring it up.

...and have the sack to back up unreasonable statements, provide a signature so your comments can be taken seriously, or return to whatever you were doing before....



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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[zracre]

My point is that in those spec classes the power differences are not as tremendous as say an E36 BMW and a 280ZX...good luck spending a fortune to try to make the z car go as fast as a well prepped BMW...with a stock engine. My friend Chip down here in s fla races a spec miata with 105 hp. he usually is top 3 if not winning!! he is a pro driver, but it shows it can be done. I drove an SM at the 12 hours of homestead, my first time to drive a SM, and ran to 2nd on the opening lap and was able to pace 1st for most of my session...until the clutch master cyl decided to blow out. that car had 108 hp. my point is in most classes you dont need the big$$ motors and motronic etc to win...im winning with my stock motor and stock ecu. racing anything....bmx bicycles to gt1 cars is expensive. that is the nature of the sport...the most expensive thing i have found is keeping fresh hoosiers under the car...SM is a very big class now. I dont think you can spend more on a top running car now that it is nat than what people are spending now unless they change every part between races. i think you will still see the top drivers doing well, just in national. just a thought...

Evan Darling
ITA Integra

[Bill Miller]

Originally posted by lateapex911:
Then why'd you bring it up.

...and have the sack to back up unreasonable statements, provide a signature so your comments can be taken seriously, or return to whatever you were doing before....

Well Jake, maybe part of his handle is a representation of who he is.


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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[racer14itc]

Originally posted by Bill Miller:
Just to clarify, Mark's GP car is a full-prep car.

Good catch, Bill. I didn't even notice the "limited prep" part of Bill's statement!


MC

[emwavey]

This has been a very interesting thread, one that I was hoping to skip to the end to find a satisfactory outcome... not here yet. So suffice to say I've read every "stinkin'" post. (no malice intended... just that I had to read them all

One idea that I like was to keep IT as a regional class, but allow the top drivers in each region a spot at the Runoffs. The only major hurdle to overcome is allowing two or three more run groups into the mix at "the big shabang".

Another thing that I was thinking about is that the reason we IT guys are interested in going to the big race is for "exposure" or something like a "world series" to race in.

I'm a total newbie so I don't know if this lends any lack of credibility to my perspective or not. A few years back, actually the first Lime Rock Memorial Day weekend I saw and took pictures of the ITA/ITS race that was interspirsed with the GT and Touring Races. I was totally captured by the idea of racing in front of a captive audience. A racing weekend with the Professional racers was a pipe dream.

I found out later this spot was taken by the Smelt Miata guys and I was extremely dissapointed. I find spec classes extremely boring to watch. Having a mix of cars is much more interesting to me... and I would gather that it's much more interesting to the non-racer spectator as well.

So what am I getting at? I'd say that either or both of these ideas would be a satisfactory "bone" for headquarters to throw at us. Give us a couple of spot-light races to run at... with the Speed GT and Touring folks, and/or invite the top IT guys to the National events.

If the SCCA is truely interested in gaining more into the folds of racing, then they need to flaunt it's entry-level racing program... IT.

As GA about holding up the CRX in that race a few years ago... did he spend mucho amounts of bucks to run? No, did he have fun? I'll bet sure as poo, he and (I think his name was) Shane had a blast.
http://www.pbase.com/emwavey/limerock_02

I think the IT folks are merely asking for the SCCA to put their money where their mouth is. "Get Real Fast"... how? The SCCA doesn't highlight the most popular entry-level racing... IT

-dave
8)

[zracre]

Good point! i think the reason we all race is for the satisfaction of running our cars and having fun...the ultimate goal is to win and maybe get some recognition out of it. IT is the cheapest way to race a touring type car in an event with other cool cars ( just like btcc speed touring gt etc)...i have a great feeling inside me when i win (and even if i dont but have fun and finish) and i carry that with me for days after. if SCCA would just give a little more coverage...even in sportscar magazine...it would be nice for our sport. maybe we should be sending emails to SCCA and ask them??? energy well spent. does anybody know how the british club racing scene is structured??? i have always wondered...

Evan Darling
ITA Integra

[This message has been edited by zracre (edited April 21, 2005).]

[rjohnson999]

I didn't bring it up. Miller did. As to the lack of a signature, sorry, I don't have to play by your rules here. You can dismiss me, but the point remains; National and Regional racing, for most classes in much of the country are two different animals and the group think on this among the IT community is little more than a trojan horse attempt to circumvent the GCR about IT being a regional only classification.

Originally posted by lateapex911:
Then why'd you bring it up.

...and have the sack to back up unreasonable statements, provide a signature so your comments can be taken seriously, or return to whatever you were doing before....

[rjohnson999]

What's the matter, Bill, can't deal with the issue so you resort to this?

Originally posted by Bill Miller:

Well Jake, maybe part of his handle is a representation of who he is.

[Bill Miller]

Originally posted by rjohnson999:
I didn't bring it up. Miller did. As to the lack of a signature, sorry, I don't have to play by your rules here. You can dismiss me, but the point remains; National and Regional racing, for most classes in much of the country are two different animals and the group think on this among the IT community is little more than a trojan horse attempt to circumvent the GCR about IT being a regional only classification.

Mr. Johnson,

You make some wild claims, then get your shorts in a know when people ask you to substantiate them. Hmmm. And, you're right, you don't have to 'play by our rules here'. And you're also right, in that you will be dismissed as an anonymous hack that doesn't have the sack to stand up for his own beliefs.

As far as National and Regional being so different, I guess that's why there are several areas of the country where they have to run Nationals in conjunction w/ Regionals, because they can't get enough cars to the track to pay the freight on their own. And you want to talk about bogus? What's bogus is claiming that the IT community is trying to circumvent the GCR. If IT goes National, it will be something that's done w/ in the constructs of the GCR. There is a way to have rules changed, and if the rule is changed, it will be done by the book. But since you brought up circumventing the GCR, how about the National classes that were still allowed to run as National classes, even though they didn't meet their required participation numbers when they were on probation? Or did you conveniently forget about that?

As far as my earlier comment, if the jimmy hat, err, I mean 'shoe' fits, wear it!



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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by rjohnson999:
I didn't bring it up. Miller did. ....

Uhhh...revisionist history, but hey, since you haven't actually referenced or backed anything up, how can we actually know?

As to the lack of a signature, sorry, I don't have to play by your rules here......
... You can dismiss me,....

Done!

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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[This message has been edited by lateapex911 (edited April 22, 2005).]

[Tom Donnelly]

Is it just me or has this topic taken a weird turn? What's a jimmy hat? Where's the black helicopters? Is the 999 really supposed to be a 666?

Where's Rod Serling when you need him?

It seems to me that some regional classes differ from region to region. Most of the IT classes are the same. IT7 is different on the west coast compared to east, or am I mistaken. So it seems to me that ITC thru ITS are the same coast to coast so they are already a "national" class in concept, or close to it. Groups like ITE or SPU/SPO differ or don't exist so there is a difference there.

I dunno, I look at IT with an "if it ain't broke don't fix it" attitude right now. Just let me race and don't force me to put my car out to pasture just because its 35 years old.

Tom Donnelly
1970 ITS 240z
2004 Dodge 3500 tow vehicle (finally got one)

[Bill Miller]

Originally posted by Tom Donnelly:
Is it just me or has this topic taken a weird turn? What's a jimmy hat?

If we told you, we'd have to kill you!


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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[Tom Donnelly]

If we told you, we'd have to kill you!


I found the answer on the internet so I'm safe for now!

Tom

[gsbaker]

Originally posted by Tom Donnelly:
...Where's Rod Serling when you need him?...

Where's my aluminum foil?

G