IT going national? Could it happen? No way? Well Maybe?

[Doug Ford]

I heard something today that I think would be interesting and very beneficail to all of us IT guys. On of the things that has come up in general conversation is making all the race classes national and allowing the top classes (by participation numbers by August) attend the runoffs. One of the things that SCCA is struggling with is what to do with all the classes that they currently have plus the the need to create. I think it would be great if they did it but I doubt it will ever happen.



------------------
SpeedSource rx-7 ITS #12
2004 Suburban white
2001 supercrew white (tow vehicle)
memphis

[lateapex911]

I spoke with Kansas (Jeremy) about this, and it's an idea I have been behind for a long time.

SCCA needs exciting racing on the tube...Speed World Challenge is great, but the club side is boring on screen...sorry, but most of the Runoffs races are not well subscribed, the interval from pole to last on grid is huge, and the racing is boring. Some classes are exceptions, but as a whole, we can do better.

Adding SM, and IT could yield much better racing, and help sell the club to the public. REAl ITS and ITA ..and even ITB National champoinships??? You know the first two would be throw downs! Maybe B too!)

I think that having certain "reserved" classes, and the remaining classes open to the best subscibed classes is the way to go. The club needs to serve it's membership equally.

The actual administration and details might need some crafting, but the idea is sound.

That said, IT as we know it will never make it to the Runoffs as is, as there are WAY too many models without proper documentation. Those models will need to be excluded. I hope that the concept doesn't get lost in the detail mongering.

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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[Ron Earp]

On an average SCCA weekend, what percentage of the entry fees are IT?

Documentation - what models don't have proper documentation (IT spec in GCR, shop manual, etc.)? What is required for proper documentation? What is an example of a car without proper documentation?


------------------
Ron Earp
NC Region
Ford Lightning
RF GT40 Replica
Jensen-Healey ITS
1/2 a 260Z ITS

[Knestis]

Again - organizational culture will prevent this from ever happening. For whatever reason, it is simply understood that there are National classes, Regional classes, and a few that are defined by the rules to forever remain Regiona - IT.

That's just how it is, despite examples like the NWR/Montana Region Double National that I attended, that had more classes eligible to compete than cars entered...

K

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by rlearp:
On an average SCCA weekend, what percentage of the entry fees are IT?

Documentation - what models don't have proper documentation (IT spec in GCR, shop manual, etc.)? What is required for proper documentation? What is an example of a car without proper documentation?

Ron, you hit, as usual, on some key elements that are going to be sticking points.

The trouble is, as far as I know, that regioanal car counts have not been reported to National HQ in the same way as National car counts have been for decades. So, the number is really not known, and varies wildly by area and race. So that's not good. I've been grumbling about the reporting thing for a year or two, and I was under the impression that it was being looked at and instituted, but I am out of the loop on whether it has begun or not. In any case, long term historical info is lacking.

Documentation.

I can't answer definitavely without significant research, but the IT ranks are full of old and obscure cars, and I hate to say this, but I think your's might be a poster child. If I recall some of your posts accurately (please forgive me and correct me if I have it wrong),, there is some doubt as to what exact parts were put on your car on any given day. Even if those parts in question, for which there is no solid documentation, are minor, it can result in huge problems when a competitor decides to call you up on it at the National Champoinship. The protest commitee is loath to preside over an already difficult situation with out clearcut documentation.

So a major hurdle will be determining which cars do, and which do not have adequate documenttion, and, for that matter, what constitutes "adequate" documentation. It could be a huge rats nest.

K is right, there is a time honored 2 class system at work here, and IT is in the baggage area!

That said, there are some leaders in high places that would like to see big changes.


------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[eprodrx7]

Jake,
Easy way around the lack of documentation, put real drivers incharge of stupid protests over non competitive items like washer botles and horns. We all know that these are not the reasons that one car is faster then the next but when you put the rule reader/non-drivers in charge what you get is a literal application of the rules and a way for the winers to cut down the guys that are there to race not just hang at the beer party

[Catch22]

Adding SM, and IT could yield much better racing, and help sell the club to the public. REAl ITS and ITA ..and even ITB National champoinships??? You know the first two would be throw downs! Maybe B too!)


Don't perpetuate the problem by leaving ITC out of this mythical equation.

Yes, numbers are down, but it still produces more entrants than quite a few of the national classes in my division.

And many spectators and workers from the 2004 ARRC will tell you that ITC produced the best race of the weekend. A 6 car battle for first for most of the race.

I don't think this will ever happen, but when you exclude one class from the potential you certainly aren't helping matters.

------------------
#22 ITC Honda Civic
3rd Place 2004 ARRC
1st Place 2004 ARRC Enduro
www.motorpride.com/Catch22

[lateapex911]

Hey- Sorry to step on any ITC toes! I was there at the ARRCs, and watched a great race, and I would be happy to see ITC at the Runoffs instead of many national classes. I left it off the list because, from a casual observation, I guessed the numvbers might not be sufficient. My bad...I would love ALL IT classes to be represented!

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[Ron Earp]

Originally posted by lateapex911:
I can't answer definitavely without significant research, but the IT ranks are full of old and obscure cars, and I hate to say this, but I think your's might be a poster child. If I recall some of your posts accurately (please forgive me and correct me if I have it wrong),, there is some doubt as to what exact parts were put on your car on any given day.

Jake,

You are correct in that of the cars in IT mine would probably be the worst, which is why I asked the question. But, as probably the worst out there I can say there is enough documentation to race with no problem.

While the shop manual doesn't have the fantastic pictures like modern books, it covers everything with enough detail - if you read the text.

Of the things I can remember people here being concerned about:

*It clearly states that one of six cam timings may be used with the motor and "choice of timing will depend upon intended use and emissions requirements."

*"If your car is so equiped, remove the washer bottle and wiper pump assembly before removal of the engine dampener shock mount."

And a lot of other litle bits and pieces. My point is there is enough documentation to race the car without question as to legal parts, timing, or whatnot. And of the JH is legal enough then I don't think we need to eliminate a bunch of cars because they are obscure - I don't think there isn't anything more obscure in IT at the moment (but some good close ones, Opels, GT6s, etc.)

Although there isn't much of a chance of IT going National I, and others like me that don't go for mainstream cars, would hate to be excluded just based on car choice.

What, would the National IT race be limited to BMW 325s, Nissan 240sxs, Porsche 944s, Datsun 240z (260s are too obscure), Acura Integras, Honduhs, etc.? Not really anything to get worried about right now since we're a LONG WAY from a National IT race I suppose.

There is a big race at VIR in a few weeks, I'll try and get a total count of drivers and total number of IT drivers. I'll bet IT is a large percentage.

------------------
Ron Earp
NC Region
Ford Lightning
RF GT40 Replica
Jensen-Healey ITS
1/2 a 260Z ITS

[This message has been edited by rlearp (edited April 17, 2005).]

[Bill Miller]

Originally posted by Knestis:
Again - organizational culture will prevent this from ever happening. For whatever reason, it is simply understood that there are National classes, Regional classes, and a few that are defined by the rules to forever remain Regiona - IT.

That's just how it is, despite examples like the NWR/Montana Region Double National that I attended, that had more classes eligible to compete than cars entered...

K

Kirk,

I'm really surprised that you're so willing to accept the status quo. Especially when it's such an arbitray distinction. IT has changed significatnly since its inception. To saddle it w/ Draconian constraints like "forever Regional" and "NGOC" is just plain silly, especially when you look at the percentage of IT cars, compared to all the race cars that run.

The SM folks were able to do it. It's one of the main reasons they didn't want to be associated w/ IT, because they didn't want people having the perception that they'd be "forever Regional". Time for the SCCA to see what's going on, and move into the 21st century.

And Jake, definately don't leave ITC out. I'm guess that, even w/ the low numbers of cars, you'll see more ITC cars than CSR, DSR, or S2 cars!


------------------
MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[Team Rocket]

Originally posted by lateapex911:
SCCA needs exciting racing on the tube...Speed World Challenge is great, but the club side is boring on screen...sorry, but most of the Runoffs races are not well subscribed, the interval from pole to last on grid is huge, and the racing is boring. Some classes are exceptions, but as a whole, we can do better...

Wow! IT on the tube? You think IT club racing is expesive now? Wait until it gets televised. Even once a year. There are some that will pay a LOT of money to be at the front of the field during a televised race. And there will be some sponsors to help you get to the front. I know the rules limits preparation, but those paint jobs will cost more then your engine!

When does "club" become "pro?"

Jim

P.S. If you're the Jake I think you are, I hope to see you and Dave at the Glen in the fall!

[Knestis]

There are NO substantive differences between amateur and "pro" road racing in the US, but don't get me started on that...

Originally posted by Bill Miller:
I'm really surprised that you're so willing to accept the status quo. ...

I'm actually very pleased with the progress that the current ITAC seems to have made in the last year, and I'd LIKE to think that all of my windmill jousting at the IT2 cause shook some of the trees enough that new ITA cars fell out - of ITS and the World of the Great Unlisted.

I've also been in this organization since 1979 and know ossified when I see ossified.

Recent changes in IT have been made within the constraints of the system, rather than because there were substantial strategic or organizational changes. Asking for the folks with a stake in the current National system to share the spotlight is a huge stretch.

On the SM front, I don't think I'm being a conpiracy nut to suggest that Mazda's $$ commitment to the entire Club Racing program didn't grease those skids.

K

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by Knestis:
I'm actually very pleased with the progress that the current ITAC seems to have made in the last year, and I'd LIKE to think that all of my windmill jousting at the IT2 cause shook some of the trees enough that new ITA cars fell out - of ITS and the World of the Great Unlisted.

Me too....IT is a much different place in some ways than it was as few as 2 years ago. Perfect? No...it will never be perfect, but great stides have been made, and some important changes have taken place.

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\"> .... Asking for the folks with a stake in the current National system to share the spotlight is a huge stretch. </font>

It IS a huge stretch, but for some reason, I think this concept will come to pass...maybe IT won't end up at teh Runoffs, but I have a feeling that we will see major and substantive changes. Some good, some not so good, and some mixed.

(Even guys who consider themselves to be NOT part of the good ole boys club, but who have been around for awhile resist changes)

On the SM front, I don't think I'm being a conpiracy nut to suggest that Mazda's $$ commitment to the entire Club Racing program didn't grease those skids.

K

Probably true, but Mazda $$ in and of itself isn't entirely responsible...the popularity of the class is the major factor.

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[RacerBill]

OK, jump in with all four wheels!

1) Thanks to the ITAC for everything they have done and are doing to make IT the place to race. I don't like the fact the things like coilovers and camber/caster plates ($$$$$$) have wormed their way into the rules, but at this time I'm not even considering building a 'killer' engine, just want to have a good time and race with someone, anyone.

2) I would love to see IT become National classes. One of the resons why I chose the car that I did (other that really liking it) was that fact that with modification, it car run in IT, EP or GT3. However that would take at minimum, removing headlights, since they are not retractable.

I can't remember exactly, but back in '66 when I first joined SCCA, there were very few 'Regional only' classes (anyone remember how long FVee was 'Regional only' before it went National - how about FFord?)

IT is at about the same preparation level as Production was back then. What's the matter with racing Nationally to those specifications again?

The car class structure in SCCA has evolved over the years and will (and should) continue to evolve. (How many of you remember A,B,C, and D Sedan, C, D, E, F, G and H Mod, A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H Production?)

My only reservation with IT going National is that there will be more racers spending the big bucks to win at the National level, and will decide to also compete at the Regional level, making things more difficult for the more modest budget oriented racers to do well. Remember, I already placed myself back in the pack by choice of car. Also, fair, resonable, enforcable rules must be in place.

Just to let you kind of know where I am coming from, I race karts every week, and the drivers I race with are in the top 10% of all the people that race there. I don't have the fastest time most of the time, but just being able to have some good knock down drag out dices at that level (one of our group is a three time SCCA National Champion) once in a while is really rewarding.

The only request that I would make of the ITAC is to request that the National office accumulate Regional class participation numbers. The last time I requested Regional results for Topeka, they said to check for race results on the individual Regions' websites (hard to do when not all regions have web sites).

Sorry for the long post. Worked all weekend getting the trailer ready for the season, so don't have the energy for a really long one!

Race safe!!

------------------
Bill Stevens
Mbr 103106
BnS Racing
83 ITA Shelby Dodge Charger

[ddewhurst]

Dam, I thought winter was over.

Have Fun
David

[Andy Bettencourt]

Originally posted by rlearp:
On an average SCCA weekend, what percentage of the entry fees are IT?

Documentation - what models don't have proper documentation (IT spec in GCR, shop manual, etc.)? What is required for proper documentation? What is an example of a car without proper documentation?

To further complicate this answer, most of the National drivers stay home on Regional weekends. You would have to add both types of races to see the totals in your area.

Here in NER, Spec Miata's and IT accounted for 104 of the 168 pre-registers entrants. IT was 60 of that 168 - 35%! But again, not many of the National drivers show to run the Regionals up here...

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
New England Region, R188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com

[Bill Miller]

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">My only reservation with IT going National is that there will be more racers spending the big bucks to win at the National level, and will decide to also compete at the Regional level, making things more difficult for the more modest budget oriented racers to do well. </font>

I see this as a red herring. As Andy pointed out, most of the National drivers don't go to Regionals. They may show up now and then, to shake the car down, or get some seat time on a track that they don't drive much (but has a National comming up), but probably won't be running a whole Regional series. Also, don't fall into the trap of thinking that just because it's Regional racing, that it's necessarily any cheaper to run at the front. If nothing else, $35k+ IT cars should make that painfully obvious. It may be cheaper to run a Nationally-classed car at the Regional level, and do well (because most of the folks spend the money to go to the big show). But when Regional is the only place to run (i.e. IT), that's where you're going to see the money spent.

Now, if the whole National/Regional distinction goes away (which I personally think it should), it's a different story. I like the idea of having the top folks, in the top classes, going to the big show.

------------------
MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[Andy Bettencourt]

[quote]Originally posted by Bill Miller:

I like the idea of having the top folks, in the top classes, going to the big show.

AMEN.

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
New England Region, R188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com

[RacerBill]

Another quick thought. Expounding on the thought that National drivers don't run Regionals - if IT became National classes, some of the big bucks cars might move to the National level, lowering the average cost per car at the Regional level. would this help bring in new racers?

What's the feeling out there about the National/Regional classes? Are the big buck cars running Nationals and the lower budget cars running regionals?



------------------
Bill Stevens
Mbr 103106
BnS Racing
83 ITA Shelby Dodge Charger

[Bill Miller]

Originally posted by RacerBill:
Another quick thought. Expounding on the thought that National drivers don't run Regionals - if IT became National classes, some of the big bucks cars might move to the National level, lowering the average cost per car at the Regional level. would this help bring in new racers?

What's the feeling out there about the National/Regional classes? Are the big buck cars running Nationals and the lower budget cars running regionals?

Bill,

I suspect that if IT went National, and we still maintained the Regional / National destinction on races (which I guess we'd need to do, to still provide the 'specialty' (e.g. ITE, RS, etc.) a place to race), that that's exactly what you'd see. Just like you see w/ most of the other categories/classes today. The folks that want to go to "The Show" would run the Nationals, and the folks that don't have the big budgets, and don't care if they go to the Runoffs or not, would continue to run the Regionals.

I think it's a win-win for all the IT racers. It gives those that want to, a chance to go to the Runoffs, and compete for a real National Championship. It gives those that don't want to do that some relief, in that they don't necessarily have to worry about the big dogs w/ the deep pockets running away w/ everything.

I feel pretty confident in saying that the folks that were going to make a serious bid for the Runoffs would probably not run Regionals. I personally have friends that run Prod cars, that subscribe to this philosophy. Some don't run Regionals because they're making a shot at the Runoffs, and others don't run Nationals because they don't care about going to the Runoffs, and are just out there to have a good time w/ their friends.

We could still get rid of the whole National / Regional distinction, and change the races to qualifying and non-qualifying (for the Runoffs) races. Classes like ITE, etc. could run at the non-qualifying races. So really, the only thing that would change, would be how the races were referred to (Q / non-Q vs. R / N). Thoughts?

------------------
MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608