Licensing requirements for towing

[1stGenBoy]

In a former life as a truck driver for a race team,I found that the guys at the weigh stations(more often late nights than anything other)were more interested in what was in the trailer than anything else.
After telling you to pull around back because they needed to check your logbook, they many times would want to see in the trailer. A quick look at the cars and maybe a t-shirt or a hat and you were good to go. It was amazing going through that weigh station again later in the month or even later in the year as sometimes they would remember you and just wave you right on through.

Bob Clark

[This message has been edited by 1stGenBoy (edited April 05, 2005).]

[EV]

Originally posted by GregAmy:
I just spent some time rolling through this web site; it's a mess. However, it's obvious that these regulations are intended to govern commercial operations ("commerce"), not private activity. IMO, we are not engaging in "commerce", we are not driving for hire, nor are we charging for our services, so I do not believe we are subject to these restrictions....

I agree with this.. Commerce is defined in my dictionary as "Transactions (sales and purchases) having the objective of supplying commodities (goods and services)" If I am towing my travel trailer for pleasure I should be good.

Just because a trooper told you this, doesn't mean he is correct. They can be wrong too.

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Enjoy,
Bill

[This message has been edited by EV (edited April 05, 2005).]

[dave parker]

I know that last year on Labor Day monday the Maryland State Police were set up on US340 just across the WV/VA state line. They pulled over several of the MARRS competitors and issued citations for everything from transporting hazardous materials(gasoline in a gas can in the trailer) without proper declarations on the driver's CDL to not having the proper driver's license for the type of vehicle being operated(high GVW without CDL) and a few more that I did not catch in the discussion in October.
I think that several issues come to light here:
1. Make sure that you know the laws that govern what your doing and where you are doing it. Ignorance is not a valid excuse(as a judge in some little podunk county in Georgia told me once).

2. Make sure that your vehicle is properly licensed and that it is used within the parameters of the law.

3. Beware of overzealous enforcement by officials. We see this all the time in SCCA, so why should the "real" world be any different. My boss refers to this situation as someone controlling their "fiefdom".Whether their "fiefdom" is real or percieved.

4. Be ready to hire a lawyer to defend you from the onslaught if you run afoul of the enforcement officials. As much as I hate what lawyers do and how they do it, they have their place in this wonderful country and there is a time in every persons life where the lawyers are needed and useful.

Good luck and remember, without the adventures of towing what would we talk about on the way to the next race.
cheers
dave
wdcr ITC#97

[JIgou]

I should just let Lesley respond, but in the interest of keeping the storm brewing....

They've got an enclosed gooseneck trailer around 48' long, plenty to haul two cars plus pretty much another car in spare parts.

It's currently towed with a 1-ton Chevy dually. I believe (this may have changed) that the truck is licensed commercially, which is probably a part of what triggers the issue.

Looks like, from Greg Amy's post above listing all of the OR qualifications, lots of folks on this site COULD be running on borrowed time, depending on how the guy in the booth (or the blue car) decides to interpret "commerce."

Jarrod

[This message has been edited by JIgou (edited April 05, 2005).]

[Daryl DeArman]

As someone who has begun to research upgrading my tow rig/trailer combination I have learned that in CA if the GCWR is over 26,000# then you need to have a Class B (non-CDL). Regular is a Class C. If you are going to tow a tag trailer or vehicle behind a 5th wheel (behind your truck) you need a doubles endorsement.

My understanding is that unless the vehicle is used for hire or is rated over 26,000# GCWR you don't need a CDL in CA.

Regarding placarding of HAZ-MAT, unless you are talking about certain POISON(s) or Explosives placcarding, and HAZMAT endorsements are not required unless the amount of that HAZ-MAT exceeds 500#. As long as you are talking about 1 drum of fuel and you aren't mixing it with other HAZ things you should not have an issue.

[apr67]

The simple answer is.

Their is no simple answer.

Its a federal/state/local thing. And if we don't understand it, what's the chances of Joe Law understanding it? Very little, they have a hard time deciding what type of donught to buy!

[OTLimit]

So here is what I have learned so far (you're circumstances may be different based on your state---but don't count on it):

The MO Dept of Revenue:
http://www.dor.mo.gov/mvdl/motorv/checklist.htm

"Trucks (“Commercial Vehicle”)
Registration fees for trucks, including all pickup trucks and all utility-type vehicles that are registered as trucks [[that includes SUVs registered as trucks]], are determined by your truck’s weight, and whether you will be using the truck locally (within 50 miles from home) or over a wider area. Your truck’s weight includes the weight of any other trailers or property that you might haul during the registration period."

I left off the fee structure because it is irrelevant except that the stated amounts only go up to Beyond Local over 12,000; higher levels are not listed. Obviously, the flat-bed dually + 42' Chaparal gooseneck trailer is now a commercial vehicle according to MO. Especially with 30,000lb plates to cover the weight of Chris' two cars and the proverbial kitchen sink.

Next: http://www.mshp.dps.missouri.gov/MSHPWeb/P...ooks/SHP216.pdf

"page 8: Commercial motor vehicle (CMV) to stop at weigh stations - section 304.235: All CMVs, except those licensed for 18,000 pounds or less, are required to stop at an official weigh station. Others may be required to stop if directed by a peace officer or commercial vehicle officer."

So that's why we stop at scales. Not given a lot of choice, unless you want to ask for trouble.

So then we go to the FMSCA website and fill out their on-line questionnaire and get the following result:
"Your replies indicate that you are the operator of a Private commercial motor vehicle which:

has a gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) or gross combination weight rating (GCWR)or gross vehicle weight (GVW) or combination weight (GCW)of 4,536 kilograms (10,001 lbs) or more in interstate commerce [[definition of interstate commerce: Interstate commerce is trade, traffic or transportation across a State line, including international boundaries, or wholly within one State as part of a through movement that originates or terminates in another State or country.]]

does not transport passengers in interstate commerce
does not transport hazardous materials in interstate commerce

If the above information is correct, then your operation is subject to:

The Federal Motor Carrier Safety Regulations (FMCSRs) and Financial Responsibility Requirements."

So now we not only have to stop at scales, but also have to have a health certificate (every 2 yrs) and a driver's log. The log can be real simple and can just be written in a notebook; when did you start driving, stop, where going, etc.

Just out of curiousity, I did a quick look up of a couple other states. FL is ambiguous: a "heavy truck" has a net weight over 5K lbs, designed to pull a trailer, but I couldn't find much else. GA has class A and B licenses for NON-commercial >26K lb truck/trailer, but that doesn't help with the FMSCA regulations.

New comments?

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Lesley Albin
Over The Limit Racing
Blazen Golden Retrievers

[Greg Amy]

Lesley, I'm a State Chapter Activist with the National Motorists' Association (http://www.motorists.org). I passed this issue along to the organization, and they're checking into it for a formal ruling. As soon as I learn something I'll pass it along.

I think the key is the definition of "interstate commerce." Taken literally, "trade, traffic or transportation across a State line" would also apply to a family of four driving to Orlando in a Saturn; I'm fairly confident the Feds don't consider that interstate commerce. In addition, I believe it also depends on each individual state's definitions of "truck."

Plus, you guys are hauling a hell of a lot more than most.

Let me see what I can learn... Greg

[seckerich]

I got stopped on the way to VIR with a dually pulling a 48' fifth wheel trailer. Your tag must meet or excede the combined weight of the truck and trailer as listed on the GVWR tags on trailer and truck. Trailer is 15500 and dually is 10050 for total of 25550 and I am tagged for 26000. This is a commercial non cdl and does not require cdl license. It makes no difference if the rig loaded is only say 20000 pounds, you must have tags to cover the rating. I had the officer crawl up in the bed to see the tags on the trailer tongue and had the load range of my tires checked. I carry about 30 - 35 gallons of fuel in jugs and this keeps us under the limit for hazmat warning. We have to stop at all weigh stations and rarely have any problems. Hope this helps.
Steve Eckerich
ITS Speedsource RX7

[OTLimit]

I think the short story is that you should be prepared. Know how much weight you are hauling and try to prepare yourself for the worst case scenario in the states that you frequent.

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Lesley Albin
Over The Limit Racing
Blazen Golden Retrievers

[benspeed]

Well - I drive an F350 and pull a 24' Hallmark. All I can say is I'm going to look at the NJ DMV website and see what little nuggest of wisdom I can find before I have some kind of surprise!

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BenSpeed
#33 ITS RX7
BigSpeed Racing
NNJR BoD - Treasurer
[email protected]
NNJR

[its66]

Lesley,
Thank you for sharing this situation with other racers. This will help everyone be more prepared. Some of the following makes almost as much sense as keeping passenger windows which are required to be rolled down.
A truck (any truck) pulling a 10,000+ lb trailer (rated or registered) is technically a Class A vehicle. The same as an 80,000 lb semi truck/trailer. The trailer doesn't have to weigh 10k, only be rated for 10k. The differences are how each state defines the commercial part of the "CDL". Many states will require a Class A CDL, a log book, and a current DOT medical card for operators of this type vehicle. Some states, California for example, have a "non commercial" class A license for just such examples.
Toter Homes and Motor homes/Coaches can usually be registered as an RV. Most states will not require a CDL for one of these vehicles, even though it may be larger, heavier, and more difficult to drive than the above dually situation.
As always YMMV.

Jim Cohen
ITS66

[Bill Miller]

Interesting note about CDL's. When I was on the local VFD and Rescue Squad, we didn't have to have any kind of CDL to drive the fire trucks or the rescue rigs. This included everything up to a 4500 gallon tanker. I'me not sure what the GVW was, but I'd bet it was somewhere in the 60k# neighborhood. All of the rigs were air brake units.

Interesting that they'll make someone jump through hoops if they havea 10k# rig, but we weren't subject to any of those regulations.

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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[Daryl DeArman]

Originally posted by its66:
A truck (any truck) pulling a 10,000+ lb trailer (rated or registered) is technically a Class A vehicle. The same as an 80,000 lb semi truck/trailer. The trailer doesn't have to weigh 10k, only be rated for 10k.

Jim, for clarification: In CA a truck is only is considered a "Class A" vehicle when towing a trailer rated at 10K+ AND the GCWR of the truck exceeds 26K.

If you have a dually that has a GCWR of 26,000# and you are pulling a trailer with a GVWR of 10,001 or 15,001 you don't need a class A...just make certain you aren't exceeding the 26,000 total combined weight rating.

Another unrelated note: In California, I believe you are required to have an Air Brakes endorsement if your tow vehicle is equipped with air brakes. A haz-mat endorsement if you are carrying loads that will require placcards. A doubles/triples endorsement if you will be towing a trailer behind a trailer (only permitted to tow a tag behind a 5th wheel)

[RKramden]

Originally posted by GregAmy:

In CT, there are three basic plates for our 95th-percentile: passenger, combination, and commercial.

And you can confuse things even more by having the same number on all three plates.

My dad had a business in CT, and the family car had a 5 digit plate, the "combo" (a suburban) had the same 5 digits, and the truck had a commercial plate with the same 5 digits.

One day, my Dad, Mom, and I were all parked in the center of town at my sisters business and a cop actually noticed three cars/trucks in a row with the same plate. Boy, was he confused. :-)

[its66]

Daryl is exactly correct on that. I should have proofread my post.

Bill,
That is the same here in Florida. There is also an exemption for Farm vehicles, and the old, roofless school buses that the orange growers use. Sometimes I wonder if the Dot helped write the GCR.

[joeg]

The "problem" regulation (or website quiz)is actually unique to the FEDS.

I cannot find any State whose rules actually trigger CDL, etc. issues at a 10,000lb GCWR level for the tow vehicle and the trailer.

You will of course find State law references to 10,000lb for a trailer's GVWR and , of course the universal 26,000 lb., etc. level.

Perhaps somone can prove me wrong and find a state that uses a "10,000 GCWR" in its vehicle or licensing laws, but I believe that something may be a bit wierd (i.e., erroneous) with the FED rule/test. All this is complicated by the fact that, legally, "Interstate Commerce" is simply travel: going from CT to Watkins Glen--there is no business or commercial aspect to it.

Why is the FED rule/ quiz strange? An out-of state dually pick-up towing an empty tow dolly will trigger a CDL and log requirement. Better yet, a Ryder rental cube truck with a car trailer taking mom, pop and the kids to that new job and home in Florida also triggers same.

Curious.

[Greg Amy]

Here's the answer I got from someone "high up" at OOIDA, the Owner-Operator Independent Drivers Association (http://www.ooida.com). No name, as I forgot to ask permission to use it.

I really don't think it definitively answers our questions, though...

Begin Quote

There are no new federal rules related to transportation by individuals of cars, horses, boats, etc., to races, shows or similar events. The question of whether transportation of this nature is subject to commercial driver and vehicle regulations has come up on several occasions over the years. It's all in how states interpret the applicability of the federal rules or whether they choose to enact a more stringent individual state law.

The first test is whether the vehicle or combination of vehicles could be considered a commercial vehicle. In part, section 390.5 of the Federal Motor Carrier Safety Regulations defines a commercial motor vehicle as: "...any self-propelled or towed motor vehicle used on a highway in interstate commerce to transport passengers or property when the vehicle - (1) Has a gross vehicle weight rating or gross combination weight rating, or gross vehicle weight or gross combination weight, of 4,536 kg (10,001 pounds) or more, whichever is greater; or...(4) Is used in transporting material found by the Secretary of Transportation to be hazardous under 49 U.S.C. 5103 and transported in a quantity requiring placarding under regulations prescribed by the Secretary under 49 CFR, subtitle B, chapter I, subchapter C."

If the vehicle meets or exceeds the 10,001-pound weight threshold, or is transporting hazardous materials the towing vehicle does not necessarily have to be licensed as a truck for a state to consider it, or the combination, a commercial vehicle. The language "or gross vehicle weight or gross combination weight" is a relatively recent addition to the definition. This means that even if the GVWR of each vehicle and the GCWR is 10,000 pounds or less, but the actual gross weight exceeds 10,000 pounds, the vehicle could still be considered a commercial motor vehicle.

Section 390.3 describes the general applicability of the rules that apply to commercial vehicles, but provides an exception for "hobby" transportation. Section 390.3(f)(3) exempts: "The occasional transportation of personal property by individuals not for compensation nor in the furtherance of a commercial enterprise." Furthermore, the Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration published an interpretation as follows:

Question 21: Does the exemption in 390.3(f)(3) for the "occasional transportation of personal property by individuals not for compensation nor in the furtherance of a commercial enterprise" apply to persons who occasionally use CMVs to transport cars, boats, horses, etc., to races, tournaments, shows or similar events, even if prize money is offered at these events? Guidance: The exemption would apply to this kind of transportation, provided: (1) The underlying activities are not undertaken for profit, i.e., (a) prize money is declared as ordinary income for tax purposes, and ( the cost of the underlying activities is not deducted as a business expense for tax purposes; and, where relevant; (2) corporate sponsorship is not involved. Drivers must confer with their State of licensure to determine the licensing provisions to which they are subject.

Still, some states consider this type of transportation to be the "furtherance of a commercial enterprise" regardless of whether monetary compensation is involved. The mere fact that the best one might gain is a modest trophy will not deter these states from enforcing many provisions of the federal rules related to the driver and vehicle including hours-of-service, physical qualifications and vehicle maintenance standards.

Also, for those involved in racing that haul fuel for their race car or boat, a state may not only determine that the vehicle is a commercial vehicle subject to the rules above, but a myriad of other regulations could apply. If hauling more than 119 gallons of fuel in bulk, or fuel in individual containers totaling more than 1,000 pounds, a state could require that the driver comply with Commercial Driver's License, drug and alcohol testing, and hazardous materials regulations.

States must adopt the federal safety rules into state law for enforcement authority purposes. While states are required to be in substantial compliance with federal regulations, they can impose and enforce stricter laws as long as those laws do not prevent full compliance with the federal rules.
End Quote

[Daryl DeArman]

Originally posted by GregAmy:
If hauling more than 119 gallons of fuel in bulk, or fuel in individual containers totaling more than 1,000 pounds, a state could require that the driver comply with Commercial Driver's License, drug and alcohol testing, and hazardous materials regulations.

See 'they' aren't after 'us'...they just need to protect themselves from people running a business trying to skirt the laws.
119 gallons allows us (1), but not (2) 55 gallon drums of fuel. I believe in CA (this state law stricter than Federal), the cutoff is 500# not 1000#, that is why I stick to one 30 gallon drum and leave myself some wiggle room. Don't need mr. officer taking my 55 gallon drum and the contents in the fuel cell into consideration.

I do find it kind of scary though that I can carry 55 gallons of fuel in a drum and a nitrogen tank in my trailer w/o any warnings on the trailer to mr. fireman that arrives on the scene of an accident that he may get a little unexpected excitement! Let's hope that never happens.

And before anyone suggests...it is VERY bad to placcard a load that doesn't require it.

[This message has been edited by Daryl DeArman (edited April 08, 2005).]

[Knestis]

Holy crap. Another reason that I'm completely fine running all of the obvious risks driving my racing car to the track.

K