Licensing requirements for towing

[OTLimit]

As a heads up, when we drove thru a weight station on the way home from Topeka last night, Chris was call in to the building and subjected to a lecture on the new federal laws about trucks and towing. Evidently, if you are using a vehicle (pick-up, SUV, etc)that is licensed as a truck to haul a trailer (race or camping), you must have a health certificate and log book if the combined weight is over 10000lbs.

We knew the rules were changing, but it can be extremely difficult to get a straight answer out of the powers that be. Hopefully we can dig up more details and I will post links to them.

Of course, this only applies to you if you get caught. Which, of course, the officer was happy to point out will cost you even more $$.

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Lesley Albin
Over The Limit Racing
Blazen Golden Retrievers

[JIgou]

Spectacular.

Thanks, Lesley. This will make me feel a tiny bit better when I write out my annual check for $435 more than if Iowa licensed my Excursion as a truck. (It's officially licensed as a passenger car right now.)

I know I'd break the 10k lb limit - the Excursion is all of 8k by itself (when full with 44 gallons of fuel), and the Miata is 2k. Never mind the trailer, the spares, the tires or the dog.

Did they mention if this also counted for the "Not For Hire" RV/private vehicles? (I'm thinking primarily of busses, semis, etc. that have traditionally slipped by with the "registered as an RV not a truck" trick.)

Jarrod

[OTLimit]

Jarrod,
It doesn't matter if it is for hire or not, or for yourself or a friend.

And btw, don't tell them that it is a race car, because then it is 'for gain.' They don't care that it is for a $5 trophy. The guy hassled him about that, too. We are thinking that we now have 'track day' car.

If is is registered as anything other than a truck, you are fine. Doesn't make much sense (especially when you look at some of the RVs pulling trailers), but there it is.

[whenry]

why did you pull thru the weigh station? I have always been told that the DOT guys will rip you a new one if you present your tow package to them.
With SCCA health requirements for driver licensing, most of us can comply with the health card stuff but the truck/trailer combo is now under stricter scrutiny.
YMMV

[chuck baader]

Why and where--what state? thanks, chuck

[gsbaker]

Originally posted by whenry:
why did you pull thru the weigh station? I have always been told that the DOT guys will rip you a new one if you present your tow package to them....

Good point. As a practical matter, one is reminded of the saying, "It is better to ask for forgiveness than to ask for permission."

G

[Joe Harlan]

The problem with asking forgiveness is if you have an accident and you are not properly licensed you could have big issues. I got a CDL 3 years ago for exactly this reason. It used to be 10000lb trailer and a combined 26,000lb vehicle but it looks like they closed it up a bit. You want to knowthe real scarey part think about that 80 year old man going down the road with airbrakes on his coach that he knows nothing about.

[RSTPerformance]

Lesley-

Just to get it correct... They are just requiring you to have a DOT physical now and keep a log book. (Right???) So now when you go to get your physical and bring in the paperwork for the SCCA stuff make sure that you also tell the doctors office that you want a DOT physical and be sure to get your card before leaving.

You do not need a CDL if it is NOT for hire (as CDL is for Commercial Drivers License). In fact having a CDL will likely hold you to a hire standard than someone without a CDL. For example the cop will have expected you to do a pre trip inspection to be sure everything was in working order (IE: you can't play dumb). You also have to watch our for laws such as when you have that beer don't drive in NH the legal limit for no CDL is .08 with a CDL its .02

Raymond "Retired Bus/Coach driver, now the boss man" Blethen

[gsbaker]

Originally posted by Joe Harlan:
...You want to knowthe real scarey part think about that 80 year old man going down the road with airbrakes on his coach that he knows nothing about.

I live in Florida--tell me about it. They are everywhere.

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Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com

[OTLimit]

Originally posted by RSTPerformance:
Lesley-

Just to get it correct... They are just requiring you to have a DOT physical now and keep a log book. (Right???) So now when you go to get your physical and bring in the paperwork for the SCCA stuff make sure that you also tell the doctors office that you want a DOT physical and be sure to get your card before leaving.

You do not need a CDL if it is NOT for hire (as CDL is for Commercial Drivers License). In fact having a CDL will likely hold you to a hire standard than someone without a CDL. For example the cop will have expected you to do a pre trip inspection to be sure everything was in working order (IE: you can't play dumb). You also have to watch our for laws such as when you have that beer don't drive in NH the legal limit for no CDL is .08 with a CDL its .02

Raymond "Retired Bus/Coach driver, now the boss man" Blethen

Actually, all of this is NOT true.

Some doctors will not do a DOT physical because it requires a drug test. And if you are pulling over (I think) 27000lb, you must have a CDL. Period. No discussion. But you are right; a CDL does hold you to a higher standard.

FMSCA considers a pickup (licensed as a truck) and trailer 10,001 lbs and over to be a 'truck', and you MUST do a physical and log book. At least that is what we have found out so far. The people we have talked to say that even though we aren't getting prize money for racing, we are still racing for 'gain.' Even if it's just a wood plaque. Chris' brother was told the same thing when he was hassled last year with his truck & horse/dog/living quarters trailer; even if you don't win cash, you are still getting personal gain out of what you are doing. Sounds stupid, but I keep hearing it.

Fuel permits are governed by each state. Some states are very expen$ive.

The more I find out, the more I keep nagging Chris to finish our Freightliner lounge truck that will be licensed as an RV (and not subject to any of this garbage for some unknown reason).



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Lesley Albin
Over The Limit Racing
Blazen Golden Retrievers

[Greg Amy]

From http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/forms/whomustcomply/index.asp

http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/about/other/faq/faqs.asp


This Web site provides guidance to businesses and individuals who operate commercial motor vehicles (large trucks or passenger-carrying vehicles) in interstate commerce to help them determine whether they must comply with Federal Motor Carrier Safety Regulations.

By answering the following questions, you can determine the requirements that apply to your motor carrier operation. Select "Start" below to begin.

Information:

A commercial motor vehicle is any self-propelled or towed motor vehicle used on a highway in interstate commerce to transport passengers or property when the vehicle: (1) has a gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) or gross combination weight rating (GCWR)—or a gross vehicle weight (GVW) or gross combination weight (GCW)—of 4,536 kilograms (10,001 pounds) or more, whichever is greater; or (2) is designed or used to transport more than 8 passengers, including the driver, for compensation; or (3) is designed or used to transport more than 15 passengers, including the driver, whether or not it is used to transport passengers for compensation; or (4) is used in transporting material found by the Secretary of Transportation to be hazardous under 49 U.S.C. 5103 and transported in a quantity requiring placarding under regulations prescribed by the Secretary under 49 CFR, Subtitle B, Chapter I, Subchapter C.

Interstate commerce is trade, traffic or transportation across a State line, including international boundaries, or wholly within one State as part of a through movement that originates or terminates in another State or country.

Intrastate commerce is any trade, traffic or transportation in any State that is not described in the term "interstate commerce."

A Private carrier is a company that provides truck transportation of its own cargo, usually as a part of a business that produces, uses, sells, and/or buys the cargo being hauled.


I just spent some time rolling through this web site; it's a mess. However, it's obvious that these regulations are intended to govern commercial operations ("commerce"), not private activity. [/i]IMO[/i], we are not engaging in "commerce", we are not driving for hire, nor are we charging for our services, so I do not believe we are subject to these restrictions.

Lesley, I suggest - again, in my opinion - that your first mistake was stopping into the weigh station (who in the hell does that?, topped off with being unlucky enough to choose some Federal employee having a bad hair day who decided to take the law a tad bit too literally...think of it this way: if everyone truck/trailer that has a combo weight of 10,000 pounds is subject to this, those weigh stations and state troopers are going to be hella busy...GA

[mowog]

Is that 10,000 combined weight of the truck and trailer, or is that 10,000 weight of the trailer?

[OTLimit]

If you have 27000 lb plates, and you don't stop at the scales, do you know what happens when they stop you?

Excuse us for trying to do this LEGALLY (it just spills over from building the race car, I guess). Chris has had a CDL for a long time; guess he just doesn't think it's worth losing his driving privileges all together.

Commerce has been described in a lot of different ways; the key point seems to be doing it for "gain." Not necessarily commerce the way we normally think of it, but hey, that's why we all read the rules differently.

Whatever.

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Lesley Albin
Over The Limit Racing
Blazen Golden Retrievers

[MMiskoe]

A couple of things I learned while managing a fleet that included lots of F250's, an F350 and one 33,000# straight truck:

If the vehicle is privately owned, you are probably OK. It defines a "commercial vehicle" as one used in a business. Now if you have a company owned truck & an employee wants to move furniature w/ it on Sunday afternoon (provided its not a furniature company) - no problem, no log book, no physical. (no logic either).

Most doctors will not do a DOT physical, it requires a wiz quiz. But they are good for 2 years. You have to get them set up through an occupational health facility.

No logbook can mean park it for up to 8 hours while you "rest", and pay the fine (about $350 if you're stopped in NY)

No physical card and they have the right to hold the vehicle until you get someone w/ the card. Oh, yeah, the card must be on your person, not just on file somewhere.

The 10,000# - that is Gross COMBINED weight. Take your F250 w/ a GVWR of 8800, your trailer can't be RATED for more than 1199 or you're over.

Don't event think about getting a vehicle that requires a CDL (over 26000). You get into the wonderful world of random drug tests for 50% of your drivers on a quarterly basis.

DOT does not make a lot of sense, but they have a lot of clout.

If you ever have the opportunity to take a driving test for a CDL, get the license, keep it forever. Many state troopers are more lenient on CDL holders.

Poke around your state to see if there is a non-profit group that deals in helping people (mostly small companies) deal w/ DOT. There is in New Hampshire, not in Mass.

Matt

[ccearlock]

You do not need a CDL if the truck is under 26,000# GVW and the trailer being towed is under 10,000# GVW (and you are not hauling hazardous materials).

C Cearlock
New member out on the left coast

[ITANorm]

According to the State of Arkansas - and it's irrelevant to them what the Federal statutes are: If the GCW of your rig is 26,001# or higher, a CDL is required, no matter what the truck / trailer weight configuration is.

The funny thing is, I had the equivalent of a CDL for 25 years. I moved to Arkansas about the time the Federal licensing regulations were changing ('93). They asked me if I was currently using my CDL to drive a truck. I made the mistake of answering "no" and they refused to give me one.

I just went to the FMSCA website. If that information is correct, every dually pickup in the country, pulling a trailer or not, is subject to their rules and requires all that junk. As was implied / pointed out: one of the "or's" is "a GCWR of over 10,000#". Most duallies have a GCWR of 12,600#, or more.

Furthermore, it involves every Class A motorhome, most Class C motorhomes, and every 15 passenger van - period.

[This message has been edited by ITANorm (edited April 05, 2005).]

[ccearlock]

ITANorm,

Where on the FMCSA website does it make mention of a vehicle GCWR over 10,000# requiring a CDL? Just because a dually pickup with a GCW of 12,600# meets the commercial motor vehicle definition does not automatically mean it requires a CDL.

CCearlock
New member out on the left coast

[planet6racing]

Wait, wait, wait! Now, before we all go jumping off the bandwagon, let's ask the important question:

Lesley:

What was Chris towing? And what with?

If it's a single car trailer with an F-350, probably not a reason to stop. But, from the way Lesley is describing things, it certainly sounds like it is more than that. Let's all wait for the answer to this before we start making assumptions. (Plus, Lesley won't feel like we are all telling her that she is wrong )

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Bill
Planet 6 Racing
bill (at) planet6racing (dot) com

[Bill Miller]

Originally posted by ccearlock:
ITANorm,

Where on the FMCSA website does it make mention of a vehicle GCWR over 10,000# requiring a CDL? Just because a dually pickup with a GCW of 12,600# meets the commercial motor vehicle definition does not automatically mean it requires a CDL.

CCearlock
New member out on the left coast

I think Norm was referring to the health card / logbook requirements, not the CDL requirements.

In NJ, they don't make a distinction for p/u trucks registered as a pass. veh. or as a truck. What we do have in NJ is a commercial registration. And any vehicle can be registered as a commercial vehicle, even a std. pass. car. When you fill out your registration form, they have a check box if the vehicle will be used for commercial purposes. All commercial vehicles get what's known as an "X plate" (the first digit on the license plate is an X). There are restrictions on commercial vehicles (must have business name, city, and state, as a minimum, on 2 sides of the vehicle, etc.). Not sure how this will play here in NJ. And how will this work if the vehicle is not licensed as a truck, but just as a pass. veh.?



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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[Greg Amy]

The more I read, the more I think that Bill and Bill (and others) are on to something. Plus, I think "your mileage may vary" according to the state you're from.

Lesley, just what in the heck are you towing with? Please recognize that on this board the typical (I'd guess at least 95th percentile) tow vehicle is a privately-owned pickup or van, probably 1/2-3/4 ton, certainly no more than 1-ton, pulling a single-car open trailer with an occasional enclosed trailer for those richy-rich boys. We certainly ain't towing with toters, large truck chassis, and 2- and 3-car enclosed trailers!

In CT, there are three basic plates for our 95th-percentile: passenger, combination, and commercial. Passenger vehicles are just that, and will not be used for commercial purposes. Combo plates are used on vehicles that *may* be used for commercial purposes, but that's not its primary function; however, CT also registers larger pickups and cargo vans (over xxxx GVW, I don't know the crossover) as combo vehicles because they *could* be used for commercial purposes (higher reg fees, don't you know.) To add to the confusion, CT will allow a larger non-commercial "passenger-only" vehicle (i.e., passenger vans) to register as such regardless if it exceeds the weight limit (e.g., my E-350 cargo van must be reg'd as a combo, but my buddy's E-350 15-passenger van can be reg'd as a passenger vehicle because it has rear windows and seats).

Then, CT has a pure commercial category (the red-letter plates) which are purely commercial vehicles (cutaway trucks, delivery vans, business pickups, etc), as well as "Camper" (self-powered), "Camper Trailers" (towed), "Farm", and "Bus" as well as others not germane to the conversation.

So, to be specific to Lesley's email, there are NO "truck" plates in Connecticut. The closest we would have to that is the "Commercial" red-letter plates. In Connecticut, a commercial motor vehicle is defined as:

- Vehicle with a gross vehicle weight of 26,001 or more pounds,
- Vehicle designed to transport 16 or more passengers, including the driver,
- Vehicle designed to transport 11 or more passengers, including the driver, and used to transport students under the age twenty-one years of age to and from school, or
- Any vehicle transporting hazardous materials which is required to be placarded.

Given all this - for anyone living in CT - I suggest that the only vehicles subjected to Lesley's concerns are our "Commercial" plates, and I believe we in the 95th-percentile are not subject to the concerns... GA