Cost dispairity

[pgipson]

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\"> They pay $295 and ...We pay $220 </font>

Sounds like a helluva deal. Our (AZR)R/N last December and this March was $185 for the regional and 195 for the National. Why should there be much difference in costs? Except for towing fee contribution the cost to do the race is about the same. Track time is not a relevant measure unless your goal is to do a PDE type thing. If all you want to do is buy some track time there are all sorts of organizations that will cater to you. But there won't be much racing.



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Spec RX7 #11
Scottsdale AZ

[jhooten]

You didn't read the entire post did you? $295 for 2 days and $220 for one day. Why should The IT drivers have to subsidize the national races? You know the ones we are not welcome to participate in.

[rjohnson999]

You mean like you didn't read the GCR before you elected to run an IT car?

Originally posted by jhooten:
You didn't read the entire post did you? $295 for 2 days and $220 for one day. Why should The IT drivers have to subsidize the national races? You know the ones we are not welcome to participate in.

[ddewhurst]

***Why should The IT drivers have to subsidize the national races?***

Regional drivers don't need subsidise the National races. Stay home.

Could it be that the organisers of National races know that a give number of Regional drivers will show, which helps the National event be profitable.

In the past I had supported the Cat National @ Road America when it was a National/IT Regional put on by my Region. Last year it was no longer was a IT Regional, it was a National/Spec Miata.

If they change the format back to National/Regional I will stay home.

Have Fun
David Dewhurst
250772
Milwaukee Region
ITA/7 #14

[datadude]

As for Regional racers subsidizing National racing forget that one. If you insist on having "doubles" your cost will be higher, TWO SANCTIONS, TWO INSURANCE, TWO TROPHY STD. Take a look at the cost of insurance and sanctions and also the audit form for additional costs at the SCCA website and then go to forms. Remeber this doesn't include your division fees that need to be paid for 2 events in one weekend. This should explain some of it. While you are there you will see the cost for the PDE's are lower because of their nature.

[Chris Wire]

Sorry, but I'm w/ jhooten on this one.

All this talk about "You mean like you didn't read the GCR before you elected to run an IT car?", and the like, are secondary to the point.

If a region uses regional classes to bolster the car counts for a National weekend, it should be the regional classes that get the majority of any discount, with some portion also benefiting the National guys. The reasoning as I see it is the amount of track time for the National guys is fixed and guaranteed. Any time left over is given to the regional guys, and it is usually far below what the Nat guys get.

In Central FL, we couple one Regional in January with the season opener National, and it is usually very well attended because it is now run on the long course. I don't have firm figures but if I remember correctly, the Regional portion was very fairly priced relative to the National race. The only other combined event is the ECR at Daytona in May, again very well attended by both groups, and fairly priced relative to track time.

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Chris Wire
Team Wire Racing
ITS Mazda RX7 #35
[email protected]

[ShelbyRacer]

Originally posted by datadude:

If you insist on having "doubles" your cost will be higher, TWO SANCTIONS, TWO INSURANCE, TWO TROPHY STD. Take a look at the cost of insurance and sanctions and also the audit form for additional costs at the SCCA website and then go to forms.

While the Sanction fee is doubled, the insurance fee covers up to 3 consecutive days of practice/competition, so any drivers who compete in BOTH events will only count as ONE car for insurance.

BTW- his argument was that doubles are a lot CHEAPER than singles when looked at per day, and as I stated above, the insurance savings is a part of that (albeit a small part).

------------------
Matt Green
"Ain't nothin' improved about Improved Touring..."

[jhooten]

Originally posted by rjohnson999:
You mean like you didn't read the GCR before you elected to run an IT car?

I'm a bit slow today. And you assume too much. Care expand upon your implication?

No, never mind. I will enlighten you. This is my first year as a liscensed competetor and have yet to complete the requirements for a national liscense. SOOOOOOOOO, even if I had an Trans Am legal GT1 car I would still be suck running on Saturday only.

And, I had two different GCRs before I ever statered working on my car. I case you missed the comment I made in my responce to the RE, I like to know what I'm getting into before I dive in.

My car is classed in ITS and GT2 so all I have to do is add leg bars to the cage, put in a fuel cell and fire system, and windshield clips and it is legal (not competative, but legal) for a national class. When I finish my four races and send in the licsense upgrade at the end of this race year I will have the winter to do the basic safety upgrades, and then do the performance upgrades as I go along. One of the reasons I chose the car two years ago. So was that a good enough use of the two GCRs before deciding to run an IT car?

[rjohnson999]

With snide comments like this, it's becomming more and more apparent that you're wanting this organization to be a perfect reflection of yourself. So I'll repeat what's been hinted at and even said directly: If you don't like what they're charging, don't do the race. Your region has a corporate charter under whatever state it's in and it operates according to those rules as well as the Club's requirements. How those apply in your state is probably different than mine, but entry in a race does not confer special status beyond being a customer. Your membership is a different kettle of fish. As such, it, too, has no special status because you drive a particular car in a particular class.

Either work the club/region politics or choose the events you'll support. Or both. This forum isn't doing either.

Originally posted by jhooten:
You know the ones we are not welcome to participate in.

[jhooten]

Originally posted by rjohnson999:
With snide comments like this, it's becomming more and more apparent that you're wanting this organization to be a perfect reflection of yourself. So I'll repeat what's been hinted at and even said directly: If you don't like what they're charging, don't do the race. Your region has a corporate charter under whatever state it's in and it operates according to those rules as well as the Club's requirements. How those apply in your state is probably different than mine, but entry in a race does not confer special status beyond being a customer. Your membership is a different kettle of fish. As such, it, too, has no special status because you drive a particular car in a particular class.

Either work the club/region politics or choose the events you'll support. Or both. This forum isn't doing either.

Dear Mr. Johnson,

You have no idea who I am or what I want from this organization. Your speculations nowhere near accurate.

Where does this "special status" come from? Who claimed special status until you mentioned it?

Up until this year that majority of the Weekends that were not doubles had been R/N/RR. Now all of a sudden, and with out the courtesy of even a little blurb in the news letter giving a clue as to the reasoning behind the decision, it has been determined that there in no longer time in the day to hold the Sunday restricted regional. Which, BTW, only took up one 30 minutes session as the grid was set by the race results from the saturday race, to make it clear there was no P&Q for the regional classes only the race on sunday. And yes I am aware that to do so took three sanction numbers with the attendant cost.

Now it has been a concern for the last few years that nationals, single or double, were at best a break even for the hosting region, and often are net losers. On the weekends which were a R/N/RR there was a greater difference in the entry fees for those entering the R/RR and those entering the R/N. With the sanction fee being higher and the other cost associated with a national (tow fee for one, as has been mentioned) that are not required for a regional it was understood and accepted that the national entrants would be charged more. Part of the idea was to attract more regional entrants to enhance the profit potential.

Texas is a large state and some have a very long tow. By giving them two points races in a weekend instead of just one it gives them more incentive to make the tow instead of choosing to skip the weekend and wait for the next R/R. More entrants the lower the cost to all entered. BTW as large as this state is there are only two SCCA approved tracks. The infield/oval at Texas Motor Speedway near DFW and Texas World Speedway near College Station. No Problem Raceway in LA. is pending approval Which may give the division another option.

Next year when I have a national liscense and can drive in the both races will I still feel the same way I do now or will I be happy I don't have to be excluded any more? Yes I will feel the same. To stay alive we as a club must grow. To grow we must attract new members. New members have few choices but to strt racing at the regional level. If "WE" make them feel like lessor beings or make the price so high they don't feel it is a good value they are going to go the autoX, fast and furious, or drag strip routes. (Do you know what it cost for the friday night test and tune at the local dragstrip? $15 and you can run as often and you get in line. Gates open at 6pm and close at midnight.) And "WE" will die a slow painful death.

So what are your ideas to contain cost, attact new members, and keep the ones we have?

Now that I know when and where the Region BOD meetings are I will be making my presence known.

Now have a nice day.

[Maddog]

Originally posted by jhooten:

Now it has been a concern for the last few years that nationals, single or double, were at best a break even for the hosting region, and often are net losers. On the weekends which were a R/N/RR there was a greater difference in the entry fees for those entering the R/RR and those entering the R/N. With the sanction fee being higher and the other cost associated with a national (tow fee for one, as has been mentioned) that are not required for a regional it was understood and accepted that the national entrants would be charged more. Part of the idea was to attract more regional entrants to enhance the profit potential.

I agree that entry fees could be a lot more equitable than they are. This is an issue that needs to be addressed by each Region, but they won't do anything until the drivers let them know they are unhappy. Bitching here won't help, go to a Region meeting and hammer on your RE and Race Chair.


[This message has been edited by Maddog (edited March 23, 2005).]

[Maddog]

Originally posted by jhooten:

Up until this year that majority of the Weekends that were not doubles had been R/N/RR. Now all of a sudden, and with out the courtesy of even a little blurb in the news letter giving a clue as to the reasoning behind the decision, it has been determined that there in no longer time in the day to hold the Sunday restricted regional.

This is not something that came up overnight, it has been discussed at great length at SW Div meetings for the last 5 years or so.

The restricted regionals started to go away 4 or 5 years ago when the National groups grew from 4 to 5, and SM made the one Regional group grow to 2. This took us from 5 to 7 race groups.

The TWS 2.9 takes longer to clear between sessions than the 1.8 does, and there simply isn't enough time to run 7 groups on both days on the long track. In order to keep the RRs on the schedule, a number of races usually held on the long track were shifted to the short layout.

Which, BTW, only took up one 30 minutes session as the grid was set by the race results from the saturday race, to make it clear there was no P&Q for the regional classes only the race on sunday.

With 2 groups, it takes just over an hour including cleanup on the 1.8. It's doable on the short course, but on the long course there isn't another hour in the day.

A lot of people have crunched the numbers and nobody has found a way to add time to the day.

[pgipson]

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">You didn't read the entire post did you? $295 for 2 days and $220 for one day </font>

Yeah, I read the entire post. A Regional $220. A National $295. A restricted regional (which is or is not happening -- that's not clear) at some undefined price, the assumption being it was included before and isn't available now. Doesn't change the argument. Still a helluva deal. Where else are you going to go to RACE your car for that amount of money?

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Spec RX7 #11
Scottsdale AZ

[Daryl DeArman]

.

[This message has been edited by Daryl DeArman (edited March 24, 2005).]

[jhooten]

Originally posted by pgipson:
Yeah, I read the entire post. A Regional $220. A National $295. A restricted regional (which is or is not happening -- that's not clear) at some undefined price, the assumption being it was included before and isn't available now. Doesn't change the argument. Still a helluva deal. Where else are you going to go to RACE your car for that amount of money?

$295 for both the saturday regional and the sunday national. $220 for the saturday regional only. There is no RR on sunday. 42% as much track time, 75% of the entry fee.

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Jerry
ITS/E 85 Toyota Supra
Lone Star Region

[jhooten]

Maddog,

I stand corrected. Looking at the archives from the 2004 season on the division website all three R/N/RR weekends were on the short course.

[rjohnson999]

There is a difference between National and Regional racing. For one, the GCR specifies a minimum amount of practice/qualifying time and minimum race distance/time. No such requirement exists for Regionals. The GCR controls the schedule. It would be interesting to compare the amount of track time, according to GCR requirements, with the actual amount of time provided last year and the proposed schedule for this year. I suspect the prior schedule was in violation of the GCR and this year's schedule corrects that.

Again, if you don't like the schedule and prices, don't do the event. The GCR requires that the National program take precedence over anything else scheduled for the weekend. You can "confront" your BoD till you turn blue, but they are not in a position to change that in any way.

Originally posted by jhooten:

Dear Mr. Johnson,

You have no idea who I am or what I want from this organization. Your speculations nowhere near accurate.

Where does this "special status" come from? Who claimed special status until you mentioned it?

Up until this year that majority of the Weekends that were not doubles had been R/N/RR. Now all of a sudden, and with out the courtesy of even a little blurb in the news letter giving a clue as to the reasoning behind the decision, it has been determined that there in no longer time in the day to hold the Sunday restricted regional. Which, BTW, only took up one 30 minutes session as the grid was set by the race results from the saturday race, to make it clear there was no P&Q for the regional classes only the race on sunday. And yes I am aware that to do so took three sanction numbers with the attendant cost.

Now it has been a concern for the last few years that nationals, single or double, were at best a break even for the hosting region, and often are net losers. On the weekends which were a R/N/RR there was a greater difference in the entry fees for those entering the R/RR and those entering the R/N. With the sanction fee being higher and the other cost associated with a national (tow fee for one, as has been mentioned) that are not required for a regional it was understood and accepted that the national entrants would be charged more. Part of the idea was to attract more regional entrants to enhance the profit potential.

Texas is a large state and some have a very long tow. By giving them two points races in a weekend instead of just one it gives them more incentive to make the tow instead of choosing to skip the weekend and wait for the next R/R. More entrants the lower the cost to all entered. BTW as large as this state is there are only two SCCA approved tracks. The infield/oval at Texas Motor Speedway near DFW and Texas World Speedway near College Station. No Problem Raceway in LA. is pending approval Which may give the division another option.

Next year when I have a national liscense and can drive in the both races will I still feel the same way I do now or will I be happy I don't have to be excluded any more? Yes I will feel the same. To stay alive we as a club must grow. To grow we must attract new members. New members have few choices but to strt racing at the regional level. If "WE" make them feel like lessor beings or make the price so high they don't feel it is a good value they are going to go the autoX, fast and furious, or drag strip routes. (Do you know what it cost for the friday night test and tune at the local dragstrip? $15 and you can run as often and you get in line. Gates open at 6pm and close at midnight.) And "WE" will die a slow painful death.

So what are your ideas to contain cost, attact new members, and keep the ones we have?

Now that I know when and where the Region BOD meetings are I will be making my presence known.

Now have a nice day.

[jhooten]

Originally posted by rjohnson999:
There is a difference between National and Regional racing. For one, the GCR specifies a minimum amount of practice/qualifying time and minimum race distance/time. No such requirement exists for Regionals. The GCR controls the schedule. It would be interesting to compare the amount of track time, according to GCR requirements, with the actual amount of time provided last year and the proposed schedule for this year. I suspect the prior schedule was in violation of the GCR and this year's schedule corrects that.

Again, if you don't like the schedule and prices, don't do the event. The GCR requires that the National program take precedence over anything else scheduled for the weekend. You can "confront" your BoD till you turn blue, but they are not in a position to change that in any way.

Dude what is your problem? You tell me to get involved. So I said I will make my presence know at the BOD meeting and you come up with "confront" the board. I can make my presence known without starting a confrontation even if you can't.

In a previous post you made some wild claim about "special status" and entering making one nothing but a customer. Even though earlier in the "discussion" I had made the point that as far as the hosting region was concerned I was nothing to them but a customer since I was not a member of their region. A customer has the right to make their opinions of the product known. The supplier of the goods/services can listen to the customers concerns and use the feed back to improve the product or they can cop the attitude "where else you got to go?"

We had a race chair from houston region last year who manged to find ways to give "us" a 45mile/45min race once a year or so. Didn't have to do it but did. I guess I should go back and file a protest for a violation of the GCR by a race official. I won't, that would be confrontational. I did at the time tell that official how much it was appreciated.

With the reactionary attitude displayed by some of the members here I am beginning to understand why NASA is looking better to some SCCA members.

[Maddog]

Originally posted by jhooten:

We had a race chair from houston region last year who manged to find ways to give "us" a 45mile/45min race once a year or so. Didn't have to do it but did. I guess I should go back and file a protest for a violation of the GCR by a race official. I won't, that would be confrontational. I did at the time tell that official how much it was appreciated.

What section of the GCR would this protest allege to have been violated???

[jhooten]

Originally posted by Maddog:
What section of the GCR would this protest allege to have been violated???

Mr. Johnson in the one that claimed the schedule was in violation of the GCR. Ask him.