Cost dispairity

[rjohnson999]

Are you sure your calculations on cost are correct? I didn't see anything in your numbers that suggest even a hint of maintenance and capital expense for the equipment used during a race weekend, just to name a couple of expenses. Does your region feed the staff? Is there a party? I didn't see mention of those, either.

It's also interesting to turn the thing upside down and view the small cost differential as an incentive to enter the tripple. Not possible in an IT car? Maybe the region has been trying to strengthen its National program.

If you don't like being the subject of a directed marketing effort you might have to find another planet to race on.

Is there a Divisional Championship Series in RMDiv? How such a series would interact with the schedule is also a potential factor.

Are regional racers held in lower regard than national competitors? I don't know the situation in RMDiv. That's not the case in my region. Of course, we don't need to combine regional and national events so there's no way your situation applies, but have you thought about the impact of trying to split regional and national events in your region/division? If it's not possible you might consider what the region is trying to accomplish. Is it possible for them to even do a national without support from some regional classes?

Another perspective shift would be to consider the regional classes support groups like the lesser events on a Pro card. You want to play on the same weekend as the national competitors? You play by the rules that put the national classes first. If not, don't do the events.

As was already mentioned, what percentage of your race weekend budget does the entry fee, inflated or otherwise, represent? What percentage does the differential between what's being charged and what you want to pay, represent in your event budget?

Something that's been hinted at in other posts but which might need to be spelled out more clearly; while competitors at all levels are under represented in the management of most regions, regional racers are even less involved than national competitors.

Posting here gets you nothing but an opportunity to vent. Getting involved in your region is the way to effect change.

Originally posted by JeffW:
Looking at the fees for the doubles and the triple, it looks like the average cost per day is about $130- $137.50. (Hmmm... where have we seen that $137.00 figure before?) Singles for Regional and National events are still outrageously priced.

[JeffW]

I know there have been several posts on this thread. Many of the questions you have asked were answered earlier.

We took the financial statement from the RE for the R/N from last summer and calculated the cost per day per entry. $137. And it included the worker party, insurance, track rent, emergency services - everything listed, including the national tow fund.

Look more closely at the triple for Memorial Day. Regional-Regional- NATIONAL. NO! It can't be done in an IT car!

On the weekend in question, I believe there were about 50 regional-only participants with 41 entries for the Sunday national race. And some of the 41 nationals entered the Saturday regional. Still, the regional only guys took the brunt of the cost for the weekend.

I do not see where factoring my other expenses for the weekend has any bearing on the issue of lopsided entry fees. *see my Twinkie example in an earlier post* It is a simple example of a free market and perceived value of the product.

This is very frustrating because many people who do not have a good explanation tend to drift to tangents, and even non-sequitars, of the topic. (Good track time, "I work Saturday's and can't make both days.", "My engines cost $10K, so the entry fees are insignificant.") Convince me with a solid, logical argument and we'll move to the next topic. So far, nobody has.

This issue should stand on its own merit. My BoD has been unable/unwilling to provide me with a logical explanation up to this point. The pieces may be there, but they have not been able to put them together yet. With the pieces I have, it looks like the regional-only drivers are on the short end.

Jeff

[rjohnson999]

Did I read correctly that you had less than 100 entries combined for the entire weekend? If so, I have a much more fundamental question: Why does your region run National races at all?

Taking the upside down incentive further, it looks like they're trying to buy National entries.

If you are representative of the Reginal community in your region you might want to think about establishing your leadership of that constituency and leverage that into Board influence. Politics, I know, but that's how things get done in this club.

[JeffW]

That was a 'last chance' national, having held a Double National in April, a Single National as part of a R/R/N on Memorial Day, and a Double National on the July 4 weekend. The only National racers who showed up in late July were those who had mechanical and scheduling problems earlier in the year. I know of some who towed to Doubles out of the division to have 2 chances in the weekend to qualify for the Runoffs. Had they broken during the last chance national in their quest they would have to tow, so they skipped the single. The R/N seems to be considered a 'throwaway' by many involved.

I suggested that another 3 day event like the Memorial Day weekend be added to the schedule. We traditionally have a Double Regional scheduled for Labor Day. Tack on a National and let the hybrid child in late July be a Double Regional. Or make the late July event a Double National and turn the Labor Day event into a 3 day Regional.

It is taking time to make the changes. When this was initially addressed last July, there seemed to be progress in getting the entry fees fixed. I trusted that it was in the proper hands and was going to be dealt with. My trust was betrayed. That's why I'm the mad hound on the hunt now. I take every opportunity I can to speak on this issue. And more members are starting to speak out. At last month's Town Hall membership meeting, the topic was brought up again. A longtime (20+ years?) member who had not been to the previous meeting listened to the discussion and began to question the rate structure, saying that he had never thought about it before and asked that something be done. Another example of someone on the inside who was too close to the process to question it.

Any comments on my RE's CF/FF Challenge? Or did I make a convincing argument?

Jeff

[rjohnson999]

It looks like an attempt to duplicate the CENDiv East-West Challenge which is based, in part, on the premise that competitors don't run every event, so designating specific events for the program is a way to focus on getting the biggest entry. The EWC only runs doubles and I would imagine the FF drivers in RMDiv expressed an interest in running doubles.

The only thing this has to do with entry fees is to highlight the issue of which races you choose to enter. It's your entry fee. Use it to YOUR best advantage.

[This message has been edited by rjohnson999 (edited March 21, 2005).]

[datadude]

As far as costs go there are little known facts. Some tracks charge diffrerent rates, by region, by event, by organizing group, services required by the governing organizers and by what day of the week the events are held on. Next is the sanction fee to the organizing group, the insurance fee (make sure you run an event that has insurance), in SCCA there is also an over insurance fee. Add the cost of sending and printing entries. Add the cost of wreckers and medical. Add the cost any specialty that requires a fee (using a third party F&C group or possibly having to cover expense for a cheif of a specialty to come in if your region doesn't have one). Cost and maintainence of all equipment needed. Cost of paper and print for t&s (an average double regional uses almost a case of paper, maybe we should only print 1 per driver. Cost of lunches and party for drivers and workers. Cost of trophies. Cost of all long distance phone calls for all those license and late entry and questions. Cost of mailing a book of results to a bunch of places. Cost of worker giveaways. If it is a double regional or a double ntl it is two sanctions and two seperate insurance fees, tow and class SRF & FSCCA. Cost of tow fund fees for nationals. Cost of SRF, FSCCA fees on all events. Cost of national trophy fund and regional and divisional series fees. This is a start. If you actually want more track time for regional racing a single regional would give you more actual track time. Insurance costs for PDE and regional and road racing ans solo and rally are unique to each venue because of the liability of each. SCCA racing is the safest and most insured racing. We never think we need the insurance until we have to use it.

[Renaultfool]

There was discussion a few posts ago on this thread about "late fees". I for one will never pay a late fee, I will skip the event instead of paying. No one can show me where there are extra costs to the club for not signing up early. The late fee is only a penalty for those, who for one reason or another, did not enter some specified time before an event.

If you look at the dwindling entries at events and then factor in the cost per car, logic would seem to point out that more cars equal less costs per car for the fixed cost part of the budget. Charging a late fee might keep other competitors home, which in the end will make your event less profitable.

I've heard the old "Pro" racing excuse that "it allows us to advertise the drivers competing prior to the event" but remember, most of our events are not spectator events, therefore no advertising.

We are not the best bang for the buck in hobby racing. Motorcycle racing (dirt and paved) that takes place every weekend is cheaper. Drag Racing that takes place every weekend is cheaper. Stock Car Racing that takes place every weekend is cheaper. Tractor Pulls, Mud Runs, Go Karts, and on and on. No, in reality WE are the most expensive hobby racing out there.

I would like to know why. Some say it is the expensive insurance we have. Maybe like all insurance plans, we may have to personally have to pick up a bigger deductable to keep the price in check. Running Double anything is better for the driver, yet we have trouble scheduling double drivers schools, Nationals, and sometimes regionals, because some feel that it may effect their future event.

The drivers pay for all track events, everyone else (Stewards, corner workers etc.) get in free. I apprciate their donated time, but that does not give any of them the right to increase the cost for those paying for the event, the driver.

In our club, everyone's vote should be equal, but common sense would seem to indicate that the club should look to those paying the bills for guidance on the direction of the club and it's events. Instead, our club, through it's structure designed to promote old, out of touch guys to be in charge, has lost sight of what it's customer, the driver, wants. It appears that some of those in charge, both nationally and at the race event level, don't even care, and are simply on a power trip. What we really need is a way, through the GCR and/or Supps, to remove these road block people, by a vote of those effected, event by event if necessary, for the good of the club.

I've raced with several different organizations and in different forms of racing. Right now I hold a national license and race regionals in IT-C, because I like road racing. I am on the board of our region and have served on and off for 15 years, so I know of some of the politics of the club. Drivers pay for the events and drives vote by where they chose to spend their money. If the SCCA had been doing their job, taking care of their customer, NASA would not exist, and our fields wouldn't be shrinking.

Carl "The Renaultfool" Holbrook OVR/MVR Dual

[Andy Bettencourt]

Carl,

My bet is that a late fee has zero to do with profitability. It is simply a DIS-incentive to register late. When you miss the cut-off, you affect - in a negative way - the Registration process and all the items associated with that job - run groups, etc.

We have a nice system up here in the Northeast, electronic Pre-Reg without a pre-payment requirement. They only down-side is that many register and then it's easy to not show up.

AB

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Andy Bettencourt
New England Region, R188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com

[spnkzss]

People need to remember that even tho a weekend may cost X amount and that X amount is "85%" of the cost for a double, it is cheaper to run 2 races in one weekend then it would be to have 2 weekends for 2 races. That cost difference is reflected.

Spanky
#???? ITC Honda Civic WDCR

[racer_tim]

Andy, in San Francisco, we also have an electronic pre-registration, and if you don't show up, your charged a $20 "procesing" fee. You might want to talk to your registrar about implementing some kind of fee for no-shows



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Tim Linerud
San Francisco Region SCCA
#95 GP Wabbit
http://linerud.myvnc.com/racing/index.html

racer_tim @ yahoo dot com

[Wreckerboy]

Here in EMRA-land we have been having a similar discussion regarding pricing for the upcoming 2005 season. Let me take this opportunity to illustrate, at least in part, the factors that drive a sanctioning body to set fees. In the comments above I saw some that touched upon, but did not really address, the factors driving costs:

1. Track rentals. LRP has gone up something like 40% over last year. We have already heard that the fees for '06 will likely be in the "bend over and say you love me" range. WGI is also hitting us with a sizeable increase for '05.

"Oh, and by the way," track management universally says, "if you don't like it tough. We'll give your dates away to any of the 20 or 30 guys who want it."

2. Insurance. The tracks all require it, and prudence dictates it. We are still waiting for the quote for the '05 season, but figure that there will be an increase.

I can't speak for other organizations, but EMRA is incorporated as a Not For Profit organization in New York. Thus, we have no profit motive beyond not operating at a loss. Our primary costs have always been insurance and track rentals. We have no choice but to pass along the increases we are seeing to our membership, the racers, or go out of existence as a racing body.

David Dewhurst mentioned the difference in cost to the entrant between a DE and race event. The tracks that EMRA goes to ALL charge a sizeable difference between the tow types. Rental costs at LRP, for example, are much cheaper for a TT or DE type event than for a wheel to wheel event. Insurance costs are cheaper too.

Again, I can't speak for the other groups out there, and I do not know what their driving factors are. I can only tell you that in a group where there is no profit motive, where the primary overhead is insurance and rentals, we are feeling the pinch also and must reluctantly pass those costs along to the racing memebers.

[chuck baader]

Of all the above posts, I see about two people that understand the costs/work to put on a race. My suggestion is to volunteer to your region to be a race director or assistant race director and experience the excitment of participation! Give back to the club, don't just take.

As far as late fees are concerned, when you register late you cause more work not more money. The late fee is to discourage late entries. As registrar, I have to contact you about your number, verify membership, obtain medical information, check for number conflict, get information to timing and scoring and tech, plus several other things. When I'm trying to put a race together I don't need (and no registrar does!!!) your late entry causing me to take two steps back for every step forward. And late entries at the track are worse...that means all the above must be done at the track and hand carried to timing and scoring, tech, and grid. In my observation, the ones who complain the most are the ones that want to register at the track. Give all your registrars a break and register early.

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Chuck Baader
#36 ITA E30 BMW
Alabama Region Divisional Registrar

[ShelbyRacer]

Well, just on the insurance side of things, it costs more for less time (effectively). At a Club Race (reg or nat), it costs $30 per car. If there are two races, it still costs $30 per car total. For 3 races, same deal. Insurance covers up to 3 consecutive days of competition. As for the other costs, I'm not sure.

Also, on a single day event, typically there is a party/food that night. On a two day event, there is typically no party the second day (or on the third day for a 3day).

Now I realize your argument negates the second point, as you'd have the costs divided evenly, and I can understand that. Consider the point though, that if you're only there for one day, you'd be eating/drinking/etc. and that day would cost more. This combined with the insurance thing however, does account for some, but possibly not all, of the disparity.



------------------
Matt Green
"Ain't nothin' improved about Improved Touring..."

[JeffW]

Since most, if not all, of the Nationals showed up on Saturday afternoon for their practice session, it was assumed that each of them had a share in the Saturday night feeding frenzy before the Sunday qualifying sessions and races.

One could tweak and kibitz any single line item that we looked at. In no case will you find the $83 difference ($220-$137).

Late fees are a different topic. A valid topic to be sure. Start a new thread on registration.

If the imbalance of fees continue and people go elsewhere (NASA), there won't be anybody to register, early or late.

Let's bring this back into focus. What specific questions should be asked of the BoD to fully explain the fee structure? And why can some regions can make it work by charging 55%-71% of the double rate for the single race day? As mentioned before, I have asked for an explanation and received answers that did not follow logically ($10K engines, good track time, etc.)

Jeff

[jhooten]

And the awnser is:

"There are several facts that you apparently do not know:

1. There is a rule that we can only hold a limited number of National races on
any one course. This means that we CANNOT hold all of our national races on the
short course at TWS.

2. Scheduling an event to start at 8 am, finish at 5 pm and leave a reasonable
time for everyone to have lunch is not an easy task. The short course clears in
less time, so that means that there can be less time between sessions if we run
the short course. Even with the same session lengths, this means that we can
have more sessions.

3. From the time the first car receives the checker flag at start until the
last car is off the track takes 3-5 minutes on the short course and 5-8 minutes
on the long course. What this comes down to is that there is not enough time to
add even one session on Sunday if we are running the long course. I have talked
to the stewards, and played with the schedule myself. For that matter, since I
also work in control I have seen the time pressure that is necessary to finish
by 5 pm.

4. A race budget for a race at TWS is over $50,000. About half of that is the
rental of the track, the remainder is comprised of (in no particular order) tow
fund, divisional rental fees, divisional trophy funds (year-end), insurance,
worker lunches and enticements, sanction fees, online registration fees,
trophies for this event, printing and mailing entry forms or cards, and the race
party. WE do try to make a little extra so that we can pay for regional
newsletters and other expenses of the region that have no income source.

5. With the addition of another entire group in National Racing, we may be
forced from the regional/national weekend concept any way. At the moment, we
see no way to fit another qualifying session and race in on Sunday in the
current format. On the short course, we could add the necessary qualifying
session and race, but it would negate the possibility of restricted regional
races completely.

6. We've been cautioned by our Exec Steward (Jim Averett) that next year we
will have to consider a weekend for one event, either a regional or national but
not both. One alternative that has been suggested is to have a restricted
regional and a national where one or two of the regional groups do not have a
race that weekend, but the groups that are "left out" would rotate from race to
race. I guess in reality, we would have to consider a regional only group as an
"always running", but that still means only one race per weekend. The
difference is that there would also be a national group or two that will also
only have one race that weekend. The only other solution is to shorten the
regional races even more.

Costs for events go up rather than down, although if we don't have all groups or
don't have a regional at all, then the trophy funds and trophies will go away.
But this really all means that entry fees will have to go up to pay the costs
with fewer entrants. I'm not sure at this moment how we would hold a regional
race, but I do know that we want to continue to do so. If you have any
suggestions for solving these problems, I'd be happy to listen. I'd love to
find a solution that would work for us all."


And of course I had to respond:

"I have sat in the control room with you on a long course race weekend before I got my competition liscense, I have worked corners, and worked hot pit for a weekend. So I do have an idea of what is takes to keep the flow going. And yes I do know the requirement for different track configurations. See I don't go blindly into things. I like to know as much as I can about what I am getting myself into before I go diving in.

The lack of the sunday p/q session and on some weekends race was not the major part of my concern. The higher share of the cost for the regional only classes (read that as IT, as time seems to be found for SM to have a sunday race, and after they are still a regional only class until next year) was my major beef. We get 42% as much track time and pay 179% ($4.40 opposed to $2.46 / min) more for what we do get on the upcomming race weekend. I don't mind paying my share but why an I expected to subsidize cost for the national race?
As it is many of us in the IT classes will chose to skip the event and wait for Lone Star's double in May. However if the the single day entry fee was brought closer to parity it would be worth the trip for a single race. Get me down to $3/min and I would be there, and I'm sure more of the others would now find it worth while to make the trip. More cars, better show, lower cost for every one. And I was so looking foward to running the long course for the first time.

Some of us may even be convinced to stick around and work the national making it easier for you to keep on schedule. More bodies doing the work the faster the track is cleaned up after and incident. And I'm fairly certain having 3 or 4 workers on a corner instead of two would be less stressful on all. It may even allow the manning of some of the corner stations that should be occupied that normally are not like 12 or 14. BTW, last year Houston region bribed me with a $50 voucher for working the Feb N/N. That was a nice idea.

SCCA is loosing members to NASA because they feel they get more bang for the buck. NASA finds a way to work in as many a 4 point races in a weekend with seperate practice and qualifing sessions. They have the same amout of track time to make use of as we do. We have been doing it longer than they have so how are they manageing to do it better?

Thanks for taking the time listen to my concerns."

Lets look at this from strictly a profit point of view.

Ok, it cost $50,000 to hold and event at TWS. To keep it simple let us just "assume" that all the entrants register for both days. That puts the break even point at about 170 entries. For the Feb double national there were 177 starters for sundays race. Since there were no regional races, all starters/entrants were national racers many of whom were not from this division. So the hosting region barely broke even.

Now lets look at the last regional held in January with less than ideal weather conditions forcast for the weekend. There were 26 IT/SXR7 and 36 SM cars that started the sunday points race or 72 additional entries. And that does not count drivers of national class cars that do not yet have their national licsense and only ran in the regional races. Let's say that the region was feeling benevolent and gave the reg/resticted reg racers a break and only charged $260 for both days. That would have been an additional $16120 in profit had the region been able to find a way to include the regional classes.

------------------
Jerry
ITS/E 85 Toyota Supra
Lone Star Region

[Maddog]

Originally posted by jhooten:

SCCA is loosing members to NASA because they feel they get more bang for the buck. NASA finds a way to work in as many a 4 point races in a weekend with seperate practice and qualifing sessions. They have the same amout of track time to make use of as we do. We have been doing it longer than they have so how are they manageing to do it better?
[/b]

Don't see many F500s and such at a NAA event. NASA can pick and choose who to run, they do not have to run all the groups that SCCA does.

Now lets look at the last regional held in January with less than ideal weather conditions forcast for the weekend. There were 26 IT/SXR7 and 36 SM cars that started the sunday points race or 72 additional entries. And that does not count drivers of national class cars that do not yet have their national licsense and only ran in the regional races. Let's say that the region was feeling benevolent and gave the reg/resticted reg racers a break and only charged $260 for both days. That would have been an additional $16120 in profit had the region been able to find a way to include the regional classes.

Yea, and a lot of the National guys stayed home that weekend. I don't have the entry for the January race here but I'd be amazed if it went over 150 even with the SM and IT folks.



[This message has been edited by Maddog (edited March 21, 2005).]

[ShelbyRacer]

Originally posted by JeffW:
Since most, if not all, of the Nationals showed up on Saturday afternoon for their practice session, it was assumed that each of them had a share in the Saturday night feeding frenzy before the Sunday qualifying sessions and races.

Right, but their second race day didn't involve that multi-thousand dollar meal, and they paid the two-day rate (or am I incorrect on their entry fee?).

Originally posted by JeffW:

One could tweak and kibitz any single line item that we looked at. In no case will you find the $83 difference ($220-$137).

Agreed, I was just trying to point out a few items that woudl be different in a one-day vs. two day, so that you could examine those issues when working up questions. It wasn't meant to say you're wrong, because I believe you have a very valid point.

BIG EDIT- deleted this part because you already did what I suggested (and I'm an idiot who didn't read that part before for some reason).

------------------
Matt Green
"Ain't nothin' improved about Improved Touring..."



[This message has been edited by ShelbyRacer (edited March 21, 2005).]

[VWPartsGuy]

You need to know that some costs are fixed, some are per car and some are could be a combination of the two. I pity the guy that has to budget for a 41 car Regional and a 50 car national. I would think you would have to pad the numbers a little because some of those costs don't go any lower if you get 75 cars instead of 91. Does the region need to make $83 per car? I dunno I'm not privy to their finances and maybe if everyone studies the numbers you can get that number down. But remember, how much per car could the region afford to LOSE before they can't pay some of the pre-pays that go into holding an event.

------------------
Thomas Benham

[RKramden]

Originally posted by JeffW:
Andy,

Actual cost per driver was $137 per day for the R/N held at Second Creek Raceway last July. This took into account track rental, tow truck, ambulance, insurance, sanction fees, and even the beer and food for the Saturday post race party...everything on the financial disclosure given to us by our BoD for that race weekend.

Jeff, I'd bet that the actual cost per driver is higher than that. I think your BoD did themselves a dis-service by not disclosing ALL the costs.

Do you folks mail entry forms out or do you use an on-line system? Printing entry forms costs money, as does postage. Paying for a on-line system costs money, too. (But not as much.)

Who is paying for the office types of supplies that Registration and T&S consume during the two days?

If you use radios at the track, they may be a one time cost, but you have to look at the cost spread over many events (or years), and then there are repairs on those radios as well.

Does Tech have any equipment for checking cars? What about Tech Stickers? Those cost money as well.

How about maintainence for the fire extinguishers for F&C and the pits? They have to be recharged every now and then, and some of them age and cannot be used unless they are tested. Just about ALL the ones in my region get used every few years, and if they don't, we run a fire school and use them. (Well, we run the school because we want workers trained, but re-filling all those extinguishers costs more than a few bucks. It is part of racing, and it is their budget.)

Who hauls all the regions equipment to the track, and in what? Does the gas get paid for?

Who is paying for the phone calls and such that the Race Chair has to make to get everything taken care of?

I could keep going on this like for a long, long time. Lots of little things, but there are so many of them that they start to add up.


Another question is what is the policy of the region. My region has Race, Rally, and Solo programs as well as a region wide program. Each has their own budgets and costs, and we do not really cross subsidize between the programs. It also lets me look at the ENTIRE cost for road racing, as an example.

Some other regions that I know of are much smaller and the funds are co-mingled, they dont have two or three healthy programs, and it is a policy of one of those regions to fund much of the operating costs of the entire region from the profits they make at the very, very few races they do a year. Hey, most of the drivers they get are from other regions, so they are taxing non-members to run their region. Its good for their members. Their policy, they set the price.

Another region I knew about had a policy of paying transportation and lodging costs for the Stewards and some of the speciality chiefs. I'd bet that those items never make it to their (public) balance sheet for the event, if they even have one.

I don't know what your region does, but in any case, there must be more costs then you were told about.

[Ron]

This is why I think there are too many race weekends. If there were only one double every four to six weeks maybe we would have huge car counts that would drive down prices. Once again I would love to run in an ITB race with 35 or 40 cars in my class.

Ron
ITB Mustang, Southeast