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Cost dispairity
Not to long ago there was a discussion of the cost in the various parts of the country. Well, follows is the text I sent to the RE of the hosting region for the upcomming race weekend:
"I knew when I started that racing was not a cheap hobby but this is getting rediculous. $220 for a Saturday only weekend. Those of us in the regional only classes have been getting screwed out the Sunday P&Q in addition to only getting a 30 mile/minute restricted region instead of the 45 mile/minute the nationals get on a reg/nat/rr weekend and still payed the same. Now you are locking us completely out on sunday.
Looking at this upcomming weekend:
They pay $295 and get 120 minutes of track time or 2.46 $/min.
We pay $220 and get 50 minutes of track time or 4.40$/min., Almost double.
Or we pay 75% and much and only get 42% as much track time.
The region is paying for two sanction numbers for them and only one for us yet we pay 75%.
The region rents the track for two days for them and only one for us and still we pay 75%.
I don't expect it to happen but it would be nice if someone could give a reasonable explaination as to why The regional racers continue to get shafted in such a glorious fashion."
Am I being unreasonable in my request?
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Where are you located? I will say that the guys whoo decide schedules and costs in our region discuss matters such as thins, and the result is that most are happy.
I would suggest that your region has planning meetings, and it might be possible for you to attend such meetings, and perhaps you might learn why things like this happen, or perhaps you could voice your objections and help form policy.
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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]
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I have taken on this battle with the BoD in Colorado Region. $220 for a single, $260 for a double (the single costs 85% of the double). I would like to see the single day rate come closer to reflecting the actual cost of the day. I am trying to get a race for the regional-only classes on the Sunday of the R/N later this summer but I don't know if they will act on it. I showed them the participation numbers from last year's R/N and the response was almost like I was speaking in tongues. The top 4 classes in the region as far as participation are SM, S7, ITE, and ITS. Registration from those classes for the single day was at 50% or less. SM -11 (season average on doubles was 21), S7 - 3 (averaged 6.4).
A friend of mine took the financial report from that R/N weekend and calculated the actual cost per driver (regional & national) for the entire weekend. The individual cost per driver per day was about $137. When it was suggested that a single could be charged at $160 and only 15 more entries would be required to cover the fixed costs, the RE asked me to prove that we would get 15 more entries. Look at the SM and S7 numbers above. Highly probable that we would get the extra 15, don't ya think?
We also have 2 DS/R weekends coming up this summer. Again the entry fees are $220/$260. One BoD member suggested that we should register for both since the DS day is 'good track time'. I'm still only getting one race for my money. If all I wanted was 'good track time', I would tow my car to the track on a non-race day and pay the track manager $60 for a generous half-day of 'Good Track Time'.
Other regions around the country can run singles for 55%(Texas), 57%(SoCal), 68%(NW), and 71%(San Francisco) of the double rate. Nobody has been able to give me a good reason why Colorado Region is at 85%. I think MiDiv is in the 82%-85% range also.
On a final note, our RE is a Club Ford guy who has proposed a CF/FF Challenge to revitalize the CF/FF classes. This special series is to take place at 4 tracks during 4 double regional weekends. At our most recent town hall meeting I asked why the Challenge was going to take place only on the Double Regional weekends. One of the tracks included in the 4 has 3 single dates during the season. Why didn't they chose 2 of the 3 singles to fill the 8 race challenge? One of our stewards, having not been present during earlier discussions about lopsided entry fees, spoke up and said that the economics didn't make sense for them to do that. EXACTLY MY POINT!!! (There was a snide comment tossed my way by another BoD member in reference to "Black Helicopters".)
IT, SM and S7 are the backbone of SCCA club racing, as shown by their participation numbers on the track. Time to participate off the track, too. Go to your BoD and tell them, "I'm mad as hell, and I'm not going to take it anymore!"
Jeff
jhooten, to which region do you refer?
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Jake,
Getting involved is what I am doing. But SCCA officials are not much different than officers of the PTA, Little League, Lions, Kiwanis, or Student Council. They have to be in charge of something. And if they are in charge of something, that makes them more important than others in their feudal system. Unfortunately many well-meaning volunteers get caught up in being part of that 'in crowd' and they forget who they are serving. And while we all know that we couldn't race on a weekend without all of the other volunteers, there will be NO races for the volunteers to work if there are no drivers. Several longtime members of my region refuse to run single days at the rates being charged.
A few months ago (maybe a year), Steve addressed the aging membership of SCCA. To get fresh, young bodies we need to continually look at ways to make Club Racing attractive and affordable. The new Time Trials program may work as a hook to get new people involved, but it's too early to tell. But the lopsided fee structure for Club Racing in RMDiv and MiDiv are deterrents in my opinion.
Jeff
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As a memeber of the NER BoD, here is what I would suggest...
Ask your LOCAL Regional Comp Board Chair to put a "Regional Race cost breakdown" on the next agenda. Let him/her know that you and some fellow racers are concerned about escalating costs for singles and also would like to understand why the cost/track time percentages work out the way that they do. Oh - ya, then ATTEND THE MEETING.
Once you have a full, 100% understanding how things work - then take your (equally even-keeled and professional) request to any out-of-Region Comp Chairs. Unless that RE is on the comp board, they will likely hav eto shuffle the request to someone in the know of the full details.
I do not think that any Regions work off of much profit and it would behoove you to get a real sense of 100% of the costs before you fire up a sh*t storm in someone elses back yard.
AB
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Andy Bettencourt
New England Region, R188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com
[This message has been edited by Andy Bettencourt (edited March 20, 2005).]
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The 3 regions in SWDiv that sponser most races are Lone Star (my region of record), Texas, and Houston. Houston region is the largest and holds more that the other two. And Houston is the one that puts the highest burdon on the regional classes. It is Houston that is holding the April Fools weekend. An appropriate name for the event if you ask me.
SM is given a run for its money by SRF. On a good weekend they both end up with a single class run group, each putting about 50 cars on the track. With SM going national next year it looks like "we" will have a much less financial inpact on the bottom line for the regions and be treated like even more of a step child.
Guess I need to get in three more races, get a national liscense, and request the Supra be classed in some production class.
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As a board member of the Alabama region the last several years and a successful business owner for the last 25, I would like to comment.
The first item of discussion in establishing entry fees is the fixed cost of the track involved. That is then compared with the PROJECTED entry numbers to see where the region will "break even". For instance, for Barber Park, 10k/day for track rental plus another 2500/day for incidentals such as ambulance, wreckers, etc. means for a two day event the first order of business is covering 25,000.00 in fixed costs. Now, the second part of the equation...participation. If racers (and we have ourselves to blame for this) would enter early or we had some way of establishing a probable entry then fees could be reduced. HOWEVER, we don't have that so we as organizers must SWAG numbers that are conservative so that if conflicts or weather reduces entries the region can still break even. Believe me, I and the other organizers agonize over entry fees for every event...that is probably the number one topic of discussion along with "how many will attend".
Still, SCCA racing is the best bang for the buck going. Compare costs with other clubs such as PCA and our entry fees seem trivial. Actually, compared to tires, fuel, transportation, lodging, maintenance, etc. they are trivial. Chuck
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Chuck Baader
#36 ITA E30 BMW
Alabama Region Divisional Registrar
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Chuck, I understand track and other cost. The bone of contention I have is why am I expected to subsidise the regions expenses for sunday when I am not allowed on the track at all that day?
Oh, I guess it would have eliminated some of the confusion it I could remember to check the show signature box.
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Jerry
ITS/E 85 Toyota Supra
Lone Star Region
[This message has been edited by jhooten (edited March 20, 2005).]
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Chuck,
One of the answers to that is to charge a 'late' fee for registrations that show up after a cut-off date (week or two before the event). Or, if you don't like the 'late fee' concept, offer a 'discount' for early registrations. I can talk to the WDCR registrar and get an idea of the ratio of pre-registrations to total registrations. They also charge $50 if you pre-register and don't cancel w/in 24 or 48 hours of the event, and then don't show.
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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608
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Actually last year we had a 100 late fee. I think the promoters that jhooten is addressing looked at the PROBABLE entries for the two days and set prices accordingly.
Please note that I volunteer my time and money to support my region. Any profits made on races or DEs is reinvested into the region for items such as computers, timing and scoring equipment, sound control equipment, region race trailer,etc. I do not know of a region that pays its volunteer officers. I think it is time for jhooten to step up and volunteer his time to help his region.
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Chuck Baader
#36 ITA E30 BMW
Alabama Region Divisional Registrar
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Is working corners enough? For example Feb race was a double nat, not region only classes at all. Saturday I have other commitments but sunday I was at the track with whites in hand to fill in as needed. The Oct. reg/Enduro I was there working as I was not racing. AndI worked races for a full year before I decided to participate as a driver.
Since most divisions require 5 years of experiance before taking you in the SIT program I am a couple years away from starting there.
So what to do in the mean time? On the back page of the regions March news letter is the when and where of the board meetings with the comment "ARE OPEN TO ALL MEMBERS". So It is time to go see what the board is up to, make my handsome face seen, and see if I have any talents that can contribute to the effort. However, I have spent most of my "careers" in the crises responce side of things instead of the planning of the operations.
All of which is fine. I can get involved in the mamgement of MY region. But the fact is when it comes to the region in this case I am nothing to them but a customer. Just like my daily gripe to the convience store manager about her raising the gas price, the only influence I will have on Houston region is to express my concerns as a consumer of their product.
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Before anyone reads this please understand that I do understand that officals/workers/organizers donate their time. They donate their time so that they can be part of the SCCA organization where WE THE OWNERS/DRIVERS RACE CARS. I attempted to take part at a open rules Competition Board meeting. I will not get into the details except that the guys who were promoting a lighter wheel/tire weight for the Spec-7 class didn't have a clue what the existing OEM rim or Kumo tire respectively weighed or what the new alum rims they were promotnig weighed. Nuff said, they told me that I had not been AROUND LONG ENOUGH to be spouting off details about what THEY were doing. Have never gone to another meeting. I belong to the SCCA to road race a car.....
Now on to the dispairity subject. I WAS (I do one new track per year.) going to do a double Regional/PDE event at Hartland Park Topeka in April of this year. Following are the details (cost & track time) for the two day event for each Regional & for each PDE.
Double Regional cost: $275.00
Double PDE cost: $205.00
Sat. Regional track time is one 20 minute session & a 12 lap race.
Sat. PDE track time is three 20 minute sessions.
Sun. Regional track time is one 20 minute session & a 16 lap race.
Sun. PDE track time is three 20 minute sessions.
Can someone please help me figure out who got the deal on this outing? Look at who pays what & track time please.
Have Fun 
David Dewhurst
SCCA 250772
CenDiv Milwaukee Region
ITA/7 #14
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Andy,
Actual cost per driver was $137 per day for the R/N held at Second Creek Raceway last July. This took into account track rental, tow truck, ambulance, insurance, sanction fees, and even the beer and food for the Saturday post race party...everything on the financial disclosure given to us by our BoD for that race weekend. We probably should have made a slight adjustment in the figures to account for the national tow fund, making the fair share for the regional a little less than the $137. But $220 for the single?
I understand the arguments for having a little wiggle room for bad weather (don't understand why weather is a problem - raced in rain AND snow, worked corners in hail), upgrading and replacing equipment, etc, but paying 85% of the double rate for a single day? If you could buy 2 Twinkies for $1.00, would you pay $0.85 for one Twinkie? I think all reasonable people would buy 2 Twinkies. If the single Twinkie were $0.60, several would still buy 2 but single Twinkie sales would be higher.
Andy, unfortunately I will not be able to get a "full, 100% understanding" of why the fee structure is set the way it is because I like to look at numbers and use LOGIC. If you read my earlier post about my RE's Club Ford Challenge, do you (or anybody else) have a logical explanation for chosing the 4 Double Regional weekends? I do, economics. None of the CF/FF folks would show up for the singles.
There is discussion of changing the schedule to eliminate any "mixed" weekends for next year. This would leave us with Double Drivers' Schools, Double Regionals, and Double Nationals. Interestingly, to my knowledge, there have not been any DS/N weekends scheduled in the past. If, as one of my BoD members suggested, registering for the Driver's school is 'good track time', wouldn't the drivers for a Sunday National want some of that 'good track time'?
I believe that the entry fees were set as an incentive to get drivers to enter for both days. But in the process, single days for regional cars were not addressed (i.e. R/N weekends) and the single day rate has become a penalty. There has been a reluctance to consider lowering the single day rate for regional-only cars for just the one weekend when they are excluded from participating "by rule". Oh, and did anyone notice that the financial report doesn't support the single rate, either?
Trying to participate in the 'process' but sometimes think I would feel less pain with my head between the jack and frame rail.
Jeff
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David, I assume you think the DE track time to cost ratio is favorable. Seems so, although I don't know the length of the track so it's hard to calculate track time based on laps. But I see your point.
The fact that the two events are concurrent probably makes this a moot point, but there is the possibility of the insurance costs being different for the two different activities. Road racing is obviously a bit pricier. I don't know if your region has a contract that allows for that or not. Just a thought.
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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]
[This message has been edited by lateapex911 (edited March 20, 2005).]
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Jeff, I hear you .....and it reminds me how lucky we are in NER where we as drivers are requested to attend meetings, and where the guys who run the region are often drivers.
I will point to our situation though, as an insight to the difficulties facing regional BoDs. Lime Rock has recently decided that SCCA is not profitable enough. Even though we've staffed many of their IMSA, ALMS, vintage and NASCAR events in a good mutually benefitial relationship in the past, we have been notified that rates are going up. Bigtime...like 70% plus. The track hours are 10-6 friday and 9-6 sat, never anything Sunday, with some other restrictions as well, No more than 42 cars in any group, and the daily rate is going to end up above $20,000.
I know that getting involved can be tough, but I think that if you show up, listen, take the time to get all the info, your input will be respected and heeded when you make your point. Or maybe our regiion is just better than most in that regard! Either way, find out all you can on why they do what they do, and don't expect things to turn around overnight.
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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]
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You should read the Prod board (and I'm sure a few others), and see how happy the people are w/ the new, $300 entry for the Runoffs. 50% increase in 2 years ('03 was $200, '04 was $250).
$200+ for a single day is absurd. It's one of the reasons I won't waste my time going to LRP. One day at LRP costs almost as much as a dbl. Regional at Summit Point. I can get more track time at a MARRS single Regional, pay for the extra gas there and back, and probably still have enough left over for some beer, for what it costs for a single day at LRP.
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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608
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Jhooten...workin corners enough? Depends on what you want to do. You have already established yourself as a valuable asset to the region by being a corner worker. As was said above, now attend the board meetings and become involved with the actual managment of the region. I think you will find attending meetings most informative.
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Chuck Baader
#36 ITA E30 BMW
Alabama Region Divisional Registrar
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Its too bad that some of you folks couldn't make the trek up to our local track in Nova Scotia. During a normal race weekend, we get tons of seat time. For only $175 we get:
4 hours of practice on Saturday and on Sunday, we get;
- 30 min. Qualifying/Practice session
- 15 lap Sprint race 1
- 15 lap Sprint race 2
- 1 hour Atlantic Challenge Enduro
- 15 lap Unlimited race
also included is camping all weekend and a party Sat night! Pretty hard to beat...
Here is our Regional schedule if anyone is interrested;
MAY 29 - REGIONAL RACE No. 1
JUNE 19 - REGIONAL RACE No. 2
JULY 17 - REGIONAL RACE No. 3
AUG. 28 - REGIONAL RACE No. 4
SEPT. 25 - REGIONAL RACE No. 5
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Beautiful! $175. American$ or Canadian$. Either way it looks great. But I'm sure the insurance costs are probably lower since they are tied in with socialized medicine. More research on the details before I tow from Colorado.
Additional info on local entry fees, this time from Continental Divide Region (Colorado Springs). For the upcoming R/R/N on Memorial Day weekend.
R = $195
N = $210
R/R = $260
R/N = $275
R/R/N = $390
Looking at the fees for the doubles and the triple, it looks like the average cost per day is about $130- $137.50. (Hmmm... where have we seen that $137.00 figure before?) Singles for Regional and National events are still outrageously priced.
With the upcoming DS/R, and my disdain for the single race fee, a fellow racer has offered to sponsor me for the difference of $60 ($220-$160) to get me out there. As much as I would like to be out there with all the guys & gals, I have decided to politely refuse his offer based on sticking to my principles on the issue. If I were to accept his offer, others would suggest that I think the fees are OK as long as they don't come out of my pocket. And also, he is not in the position to subsidize the rest of us. If he were to pay mine and not help others, there could be bad feelings in the paddock. Race days are supposed to be fun. I'll fight in the Board Room.
Jeff
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I also run in Texas with SCCA in ITS and found regional racers just do not get treated fairly here. Luckily NASA Texas picks up where SCCA has dropped the ball. With NASA Texas (www.nasatx.com) the event cost $275 but the difference is we get 4 races a weekend instead of 1 or 2 with SCCA. I still attend 1 or 2 SCCA events a year just to keep my license but I might even stop doing that if conditions do not improve.
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