So who's going to the National Convention?

[ShelbyRacer]

Originally posted by apexingsupra:
Actually SCCA now does have that "bridge", the HPCCC (High Performance Car Control Clinics). I don't care for the title but it is Driver's Education program that has been in existence for the last two years and my region, Alabama, has been putting on HPCCCs the last two years. The program needs to be tweaked some and I have put my two cents in on that and thankfully some changes have been made. It needs to run in a event chair friendly and entrant friendly format and under rules similar to PCA and BMWCCA which have been doing this for a long time without major issues. It needs to be promoted more heavily and I have discussed this with National more than once. They seem to be listening

Well, just FYI- the HPCCC is now PDC, and is part of this whole program. I'll look forward to talking with you at National, since I wrote the rules and such for the PDC based on the HPDE model, and much was taken from privately run events and marque club stuff that worked. I've worked those types of events at various levels (been everything from a participant to a lead instructor), so I (hopefully) wrote the setup to be conducive to organizers AND participants. We were given a lot of latitude, so I wrote what I knew worked, and it seems to have been accepted. We're awaiting final OK from BoD at the Convention meeting, but I'm told that it should be good to go...

Again, I'd LOVE to hear from people, either at convention or afterwards (here or private email) about what you think of the rules. It's my first real work in writing one of these things "from scratch" (the GCR is the pattern, I worked off that), so I'm interested in ANY criticism (with workable suggestions preferably) you guys have. EVen though I think I know everything, I do realize that I have LOTS of room for improvement...



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Matt Green
"Ain't nothin' improved about Improved Touring..."

[gsbaker]

Matt,

Do you have a draft (or final) copy you can make available? This is a good idea and I would think you could get some constructive input here.

FWIW, I am familiar with many forms of racing (anyone want to talk drag boats, or Pikes Peak hill climbs?) and I constantly hear from the younger set that the SCCA is "too" everything--too many rules, too old, too much of a leap from performance street. This crowd is looking for the road race equivalent of drag strip bracket racing. Drive what ya brung and put a number on it.

Not sure what the answer is, but it is good to hear the Club is working on it.

Gregg

[gsbaker]

Originally posted by lateapex911:
...The first few laps at the first drivers school must be real eye openers!! It's not for most, that's for sure!

Aw, c'mon Jake! It's not that bad. All one needs is someone else's Spec Racer Ford and a vivid recollection of one's experience at middle linebacker.

G

[ShelbyRacer]

Originally posted by gsbaker:
Matt,

Do you have a draft (or final) copy you can make available? This is a good idea and I would think you could get some constructive input here.

At this point, I've been asked to hold everything until final approval and the big press release. National wantd to make a big to-do about it, so I have to wait. So long as it gets approved, I can post the stuff during Convention (I think). It's up to the head honchos to tell me when I can put my work on the line for all to tell me how wrong it is...




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Matt Green
"Ain't nothin' improved about Improved Touring..."

[Geo]

Originally posted by gsbaker:
...I constantly hear from the younger set that the SCCA is "too" everything--too many rules, too old, too much of a leap from performance street. This crowd is looking for the road race equivalent of drag strip bracket racing. Drive what ya brung and put a number on it.

Sounds like ITE.


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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[ITANorm]

George, the people he's talking about are the HPCCC (PDE?) folks - the ones without all the mandated safety equipment. They want to be able to experience on-track events without having to add a cage and buy a suit.

IMHO, that's what we need in order to bring new blood into the ranks. What I DON'T have is the magic answer of how to give them all they want without major safety problems.

[Geo]

Originally posted by ITANorm:
George, the people he's talking about are the HPCCC (PDE?) folks - the ones without all the mandated safety equipment. They want to be able to experience on-track events without having to add a cage and buy a suit.

IMHO, that's what we need in order to bring new blood into the ranks. What I DON'T have is the magic answer of how to give them all they want without major safety problems.

Ahhh.... Gotcha.

I agree. DE events are ripe for turning tinkerers into racers. Instead of investing in drifting, the SCCA would do much better to invest in a DE program.


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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[apexingsupra]

I hope the PDC rules are NOT like the GCR. The GCR is Draconian. As an event chair of HPCCCs (I guess now PDCs), chief instructor, and instructor (for about 4 groups) what is going to make not wanting to put on one of these programs is to have it too complicated from a rules and staffing standpoint. On one hand you mentioned GCR and on the other you mentioned making it easy to implement. Those two phrases don't go together. LOL. If you are writing rules for this program I know I would like to see them before they become "cast in stone" for 2005 and would appreciate sitting down with you at the national convention on this if you have the time.

In talking to Bill Weston on the board, I was advised that the board had vested the Club Racing staff with implementing the program. It was my understanding that the board is not going to vote of the "rules" of what you say will be PDC. You said that you patterned the proposed package after several other marque groups. I hope so. BMWCCA and PCA appear to keep it simple from a participant standpoint but I have not been involved in the hands on management of their events.

I have talked to Brian Cohn in Club Racing in person and on the phone about HPCCC in the last year. Also with Pete Lyon in Risk Management as well.

First the rules started out requiring two workers per corner when no other DE I have either instructed or done F&C at required such. Only one worker per corner. After talking to riks management and then to Brian he said they were going to change that done to one.

The Rules also required the chief instructor to be a licensed Solo 1 or licensed Club racer. Why make a program which should become the second highest participant activity after Solo 2 dependent on an entirely different program? And meaning no offense just because one has a Solo 1 license or Club racing license says nothing about whether that person makes a good instructor or chief instructor. The instructor credentialing needs to on its own in the program.

I would like to see the 85mph "limit" gone. It is so arbitrary and put the steward in an awkward position (what do you do stand there with a radar gun?). I doubt it will be removed but why does SCCA come up with that limit when BMCCCA, PCA, ITRCA, NASA, Tracquest, or folks like Panoz do not have that limit? BMWCCA and PCA have been doing this for quite some time with no issues on a "speed limit" and both organizations use the same insurance carrier as SCCA for DE events so it should not be a underwriting/risk managament issue for the insurance company. Instructors in the car and vigilance by the event chair/staff/corner workers keeps the drivers in check and safe.

When you say GCR I think layers of management of the event. I am very familiar with that having been both Race Chair and Assist. Race Chair for club racing in my region (besides being the RE). Quite Frankly I don't see the need for anything more than an event chair and a safety steward (along the lines of Solo 1 credentialing which shoudl then turn into PDC having its own safety steward credentialing). Why have a chief steward? It is just one more person you have to dig up to volunteer to run the event. You have your event chair who is responsible for making sure all the proper elements have been brought to the event (insurance, contracts, tech, rules, entrants, etc.) and then you should have a safety steward to make sure the event does not get out of hand or is not conducted in an unsafe manner. Under the current set up you have an event chair, chief steward, safety steward, and chief instructor. You don't need all that.

I do a lot of DEs almost always as an instructor (except Panoz at Road Atlanta). I am a certified NASA instructor. I have helped other organization write their "supps", tech forms, marshalled their workers, been their chief instructor.I have also been "control" in Race Control several times for the F&C workers at other marque club DE events. I say this only to indicate that I have had a pretty well rounded exposure to this motorsports activity.

I want to see this program do very well for SCCA. SCCA is behind the curve on this and needs to catch up which I think they are trying to do. It needs to be kept user friendly for regions that don't have tons of volunteers, event chairs who don't want draconian rules and management to conduct the event, or make it not participant friendly. There are plenty other groups out there doing DEs that are low key and fun and if we don't do the same we will not have people agree to chair the event or have many students wanting to run the events.

While I agree that DEs can be a stepping stone to Road Racing, we should also keep in mind that the vast majority of DE drivers don't want to go club racing. They are as happy as pigs in mud bringing out their street cars with maybe a few mods and just driving fast for fun. No dedicated car, tow vehicle and huge drain in the wallet. But I agree that having Solo 2, DEs, Solo 1, and Club racing kind of dovetail is a good idea.

Speaking of good ideas at I like NASA's idea of its "passport" card that the driver gets signed off on each event as to what group they ran and what areas they are doing well on and what areas need improvement. They would really help event chairs, provide a greater measure of guaging someone's ability when you are doing your run groups. Although I think NASA card needs some work too.

I appreciate you taking on the task of writing up the rules and such. I would sure like the opportunity to look at them before they become "the rules". When you said GCR I just thought of that thick, rules laden book. Ugh. I was going to PM you but I didn't see any PM function.

Barry Hair
[email protected]

[This message has been edited by apexingsupra (edited January 08, 2005).]

[ShelbyRacer]

Well Barry, I'll say this-

It sounds like you and I are on the exact same page. Essentially, most of the stuff of which you speak has been addressed in the new rules. You are right in that the BoD will not be approving the new rules on a rule-by-rule basis, but more as a package. They just need to make sure we're not giving away the club in what we've done.

I will say a few things-
No 85mph limit
Separate licensing for officials (including instructors)
LOTS of latitude within the program to incorporate different formats, schedules, etc.
A separate participation card for participants (no "license" per se)
etc.

Yes, we used the GCR as a pattern, because we wanted continuity with club racing. The new Time Trials rules are only about 50pgs with all the stuff included, but only about 10 of that has to do with PDCs. There's evena "quick reference" guide in the first appendix to tell you what portions to look at for each level.

Bryan Cohn and I were just talking about you yesterday (I brought up the conversation we were all having here). I'm pretty sure you'll like what we've done.

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Matt Green
"Ain't nothin' improved about Improved Touring..."

[apexingsupra]

Bryan tell you I am a squeaky wheel? LOL. Well you can't get changes you think would be good if you don't tell somebody. Bryan is a good guy and always willing to listen. I look forward to seeing your changes and it sounds like you done the right thing. I look forward to seeing the proposed package. I think this program could really affect SCCA's numbers both from a membership and $$ standpoint. It should help my region recruit fresh blood. Thanks for your work.

Barry H.

[dickita15]

barry
it sounds like you got in my head. your conversation with bryan sound exactly like the exchange howard duncan and I had a year ago. the biigest problem I had with putting on hpccc's was needed to beg racing drivers to instruct. the program need to be able to develop talent from within.
Matt
I spoke with my director last night and encouraged support. he saw no problems.
dick