The New ITA Class, Part II

[erlrich]

First, I just want to say thanks guys, and give a big round of applause to the ITAC for all the hard work they've put in to trying to make IT a better place to play. Obviously not everyone got everything they wanted, but what a great start!

I didn't want to highjack the Fastrack thread, but did want to try and get a discussion going about what the changes will do to the face of ITA; e.g. how will the new crop of cars fare against the current "kings" of the hill. Will the CRXs & 240SXs now have to play nice with Civics, SE-Rs, and Neons? Is there a sleeper in the group? Whaddaya think boys & girls?

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Earl R
Aspiring 240SX pilot

(edited because they never taught us to spell in business school...)

[This message has been edited by erlrich (edited October 05, 2004).]

[joeg]

My guess is that the Neon will come up quick--lot's of them around, performance parts available, good potential on paper with the TC notwithstanding the weight.

The others are good cars, but it is nice to see a domestic brand with an opportunity to do well.

Cheers.

[Spinnetti]

Originally posted by erlrich:
First, I just want to say thanks guys, and give a big round of applause to the ITAC for all the hard work they've put in to trying to make IT a better place to play. Obviously not everyone got everything they wanted, but what a great start!

I didn't want to highjack the Fastrack thread, but did want to try and get a discussion going about what the changes will do to the face of ITA; e.g. how will the new crop of cars fare against the current "kings" of the hill. Will the CRXs & 240SXs now have to play nice with Civics, SE-Rs, and Neons? Is there a sleeper in the group? Whaddaya think boys & girls?

Good progress except for those of us who will now move to the bottom of the pack and not get a reclassification to B! (Any Toyota)

[Knestis]

It's going to be "different horses for different courses" I think, but there will be lots of viable options.

I think it's silly that the 1.6 Toyotas aren't in ITB - and I'm in that class with a VW.

Bigger picture, nobody will be surprised that I think the solution could have been to poke another class between A and S so all of these cars could find a place without marginalizing existing A cars. This is better than nothing, long-term, but someone will be paying a price.

K

[Greg Amy]

I know I'm probably being redundant and repeating myself, but I see no car that has (will be) moved to ITA from ITS that will threaten the leading cars currently in ITA: the Honda CRX Si, Acura Integra RS, and the Nissan 240SX.

Granted, it will make currently-marginalized cars' (e.g., Mazda RX-7) final standings a little lower, but that is not due to the model of cars showing up, it's simply due to increased VOLUME of competitive cars in ITA, It does not make any of the currently-marginalized cars more or less likely to win a race than they are now. Would you feel better if the same ITS-to-ITA car drivers decided to all show up in an ITA Integras instead (which was a seriously consideration for me anyway)? I see it as no different.

By the same token, I believe Anthony, Tom, and Ray (Acura, Honda, Acura, respectively) will have no more or less competition in the Northeast than they would otherwise; the NX is certainly not an overdog in ITA any more than the Integra is. In fact, we've been developing the NX2000 for about 3 years now, and I'm only finally approaching the Northeast ITA lap times of 2003!! I just don't see a legal Neon being any more competitive (especially at that piggy weight).

Sure, you'll have more competition, but that's an argument of competition volume, not competition content...GA

[erlrich]

Originally posted by grega:
In fact, we've been developing the NX2000 for about 3 years now, and I'm only finally approaching the Northeast ITA lap times of 2003!!

This is kind of where I was going with the question about sleepers. Obviously Greg you have put a lot of time (and $$$ I expect) into developing the NX, but I wonder if people have been putting that much effort into the ITS Civics, Preludes, Neons, and Sentras. There is no evidence that any of these cars will take over in ITA, but if nobody has really put the effort into them, how do you know? I personally think it would be neat to have 6 - 8 models racing at the front instead of the 2 - 3 that you usually see now.

Earl

[lateapex911]

I think it's great to see more cars at the front. And I do think it is *better* if Greg brings an NX2000, (or whatever) as opposed to a CRX or Integra.

However, I do wish that if the movement is started, that it be carried through, and that guys currently fighting for 11th in a class aren't further marginalized and relegated to fighting for 15th at best!

Fair is fair, and for "trickle down" to work, the bottom and middle of each class needs serious considerastion and work, IF the models in question are popular enough to merit the concern, AND are well developed.

In the final analysis, if "trickle down" is done right, only the true bottom feeders in ITC need to worry, and even some of their pain can be minimized with weight breaks. And of all the subsets of people in IT, they are by far the smallest in number.

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.... I think this deal CAN work to make the VAST majority better off.

I am just hoping we haven't seen the entirety of it yet.

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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[ITS5GB]

Anybody know what's going on with the '84 and '85 GSL-SE. I currently run one of probably only a few in the nation in ITS. In a conversation with Andy B. he thought it might be reclassified to ITA????? On short twisty tracks it can be some what competitive, but horesepower tracks, forget it. Just curious if anyone knows.

[ITSRX7]

I thought it was a candidate for consideration...write it up!

AB

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Andy Bettencourt
ITS RX-7 & Spec Miata 1.6 (ITA project)
New England Region R188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com

[Tak]

GSl-SE in ITA. My 84 Rx-7 in A would be (relatively) easy to upgrade!

Tak
#29 ITA Rx-7
SFR SCCA

[Bill Miller]

Originally posted by ITSRX7:
I thought it was a candidate for consideration...write it up!

AB

Andy, a gen 1 w/ a 13B in ITA? Would all the gen 1 cars get to swap in the 13B? But talk about marginalizing the AW11 MR2, et. al. even more!

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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[lateapex911]

Well, if you put a 13B in a 12A RX-7, you would be illegal. Need to swap ALL the other components as well.

First, I doubt you can find a 13B 1st gen in the country that is as fast as the best 12A cars, and second...maybe...just maybe, the ITAC might recomend the car come in at a weight appropriate? Keep in mind I bet that we're talking of car couns in the whopping one hand range! There just aren't many 13B first gen RX-7 race cars out there!

Beyond that though, the horse is long out of the barn. There are a lot of well developed popular cars in A that are heavily marginalized that need consideration. I am assuming the process is ongoing.

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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[ITSRX7]

Originally posted by Bill Miller:
Andy, a gen 1 w/ a 13B in ITA? Would all the gen 1 cars get to swap in the 13B? But talk about marginalizing the AW11 MR2, et. al. even more!

The 13B in the 84-85 GSL/SE made 135hp. That kind of power to weight ratio is right in the mix with the current targets for ITA.

All the gen 1 cars WOULD NOT be able to swap. Just not in the rules. I would also think that the GTI 2.0 would be a great ITA car...same power, right? Dead duck in ITS, right?

Make it so, #1.

BTW: I am a believer that PCA's should be used to help some bottom feeders as well - BUT - on a limited basis. The Gen 1 ITA RX-7 is a perfect example. There are tons of race-ready versions out there, they are getting parked or raced in spec classes - and that is bad IMHO.

Having said that, doing a PCA for every car is a walk toward the Prod-style comp adjustment light that I don't want to go toward. Big picture changes for the better is what I am in favor of, not menutia management. Some members of the ITAC DO NOT feel the same way I do.

AB

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Andy Bettencourt
ITS RX-7 & Spec Miata 1.6 (ITA project)
New England Region R188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com

[Greg Amy]

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">There just aren't many 13B first gen RX-7 race cars out there!</font>

Yep, that is/was a really rare bird (I worked for a Mazda dealership when they were new). There's very few things that make the GSL-SE a better car than the 12A, but they include:

- 135-hp 13B engine (the old RX-4 engine) with fuel injection
- Dynamic Effect Intake, 6-port induction
- 4-wheel ventilated disk brakes
- 5-speed standard equipment
- Factory LSD
- 14" wheels
- Suspension tuning parts not relevant to ITx
- What else, Jake/Andy/Dick?

Some things that are NOT good for IT (at least on all the ones I ever saw):
- All had sunroof
- All had power windows (so you can't remove the right side power mechanisms...)
- Speed-sensitive power steering was optional, but they were all pretty much delivered with it
- Worse tranny gear ratios than the 12A (hey, it was the beginnings of the boulevard cruiser evolution)
- Still had the first-gen live axle in back and McPherson struts up front

regardless, this car is definitely not the advanced car that the Gen 2 was (which is currently fast in ITS). It is a good candidate for ITA, just as the 12A car can be good for ITB. It will need to come into ITA a bit heavier than the 12A but it's a good consideration.

GA


[This message has been edited by grega (edited October 07, 2004).]

[Bill Miller]

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">The 13B in the 84-85 GSL/SE made 135hp. That kind of power to weight ratio is right in the mix with the current targets for ITA</font>

Andy, that's why I said ITA is noe the defacto IT2 (~2L DOHC 4cyl making ~140hp).

And I assume by the 2.0 GTI, you mean the 16v car (as the 8v car is now in IT. I requested that the 2.0 16 Golf/Jetta get moved from ITS to ITA at the same time I requested all the 1.7 VWs get moved from ITB to ITC. BTW, 2.0 16v VW made 135hp, stock.

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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[Jake]

Hmm... maybe I should ask to run a 13B in my MR2?

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by Jake:
Hmm... maybe I should ask to run a 13B in my MR2?

Jake, if you can fit it, it would be a sweet car!

Good luck with the exhaust! You think you have "issues" now??

The 13B as an ITA car is interesting. But....coming in heavier than the 12A?? Well, I dunno 'bout that. The CRX weighs less than the 12A by 240 pounds! And it produces the same power, but more...way more torque. It handles better as 240 pounds is fully 10 percent and then some, and even if the suspensions were the same, 10% less weight on the same tires means better handline and better braking. Thats just physics, folks. But... the strut/live axle combo isn't up to the CRX even if they were of equal weight.

So...even with more power (how much can that engine, with it's weird "stuff" really make at the wheels?) I am not sure it could be a contender at a heavier weight.



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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[cherokee]

I think that the MR2 is going to get the short end of the stick for quite some time to come

[Knestis]

Do the paperwork on and buy this one...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAP...2496997117&rd=1

K

[Allen Brown]

Depending on the track...My GSL-SE gets killed or is somewhat competeive. Perhaps it's my set-up and / or driving, but I find on the tracks that are real tight, I get eaten. The horsepower tracks.....I get eaten. The tracks that seam to suit the car the most, are the medium to high speed where straights aren't too long. And the track is flat enough that I am not beaten from having the ole live axle. We race once a year at an airport. This is the only track that my car feels at home. The car is also at the minimum 2530 lbs.

I have stripped the car down for next year, but it had dyno'd at around 140 RWHP. I hadn't taken the computer in to be reprogrammed.

Cheerios,