240z, 1st gen RX-7, or mki MR2 for IT?

[Raptor13x]

I'm looking at getting into SCCA IT racing next year, and I'm trying to decide which car I should go for. I love the 240z's all around, but they tend to be hard to find in decent shape. The 1st gen RX-7 is an excellent cost and availability to performance value, but I hate its reciprocating ball steering and its just too common IMO. I love the mid engined handling characteristics of the MR2, but they are much harder to work on. Which car would you recommend and what is competitive in its respective class?

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'91 MR2 (project)
'91 MR2 turbo (daily driver)
'85 RX-7 (RIP)
'83 RX-7 (daily driver #2)
'72 240z (project)
'94 Grand Prix (buy-fix-sell)
'85 CRX (RIP)

[lateapex911]

Well..quite the quetion....welcome to the madness! You've started off well, this is a good resource with lots of solid folk.

First you should think about what you want to get out of SCCA IT racing. How competitive do you want to be? How much speed can you afford? The truths of racing can be bent but rarely broken, and one is the relationship between speed and money. Hard work helps, but cash is still required.

Also, pick up a GCR (general competition rules) ASAP. ( www.scca.com ) ( I think!) Lots of answers in there...

So, that said, (no new news there, eh?) the Z car, which goes into ITS, will be a costly avenue. They are becoming less common in ITS as they slowly crash or rot away. They were infamous for rusting from the insides out.

If the budget doesn't scare you, and you don't need to run at the front, the Z car could be a fun choice. But ITS is currently ruled by the E36 BMW, which are putting over 220Hp down at the wheels. And they have torque, good brakes and handle well to boot. I think the Z puts down in the 175 range, but I could be mistaken. Weight is speced at 2430 for the 240Z.

I am not sure that the 2nd gen MR2 has seen much ITS action. I can't speak of it's potential, but again, the BMW is your bogey...in non turbo form can the motor match the p/w ratio of the fast ITS cars? (E36 is 2850 w/ 225 hp) The MR2 spec weight is 2545.

That leaves the RX-7, which is in ITA, and frankly, it gets killed by well developed and driven CRXs, Integras, and 240SXs. (and next year by a slew of cars moving down to ITA from ITS) But it makes a great starter car as it teaches driving skill, wrenching skill, but has a relatively reliable motor. Not the easiest car to drive though. Don't let the steering scare you...set up for the track it is fine, and feel is decent. Steering is the least of the issues, actually!

I see you are from Michigan. Maybe some locals will chime in here. I think they run a class called IT7 in your area, which is for RX-7s that are prepped to ITA rules, but only run against themselves for trophies and points. The class is not offered in every region, but if you go out of region you can always run ITA.

So, think over what you want in the end. Stop by and talk to racers at the track...you'll meet some nice folk and might learn something to boot.

And...... I have to give you the standard IT.com "buy- don't build your first car" speech....I know you are more than capable of building the car, but do think about buying a running race car, if you can get your 'work on it jonesing' satisfied elsewhere. New race cars will soak up twice as much money and 10 times the time if you build your own. Plus the logbook has value, and the owner will often mantor and guide you along the SCCA school path (which can be more than a little confusing!). If racing, as opposed to building cars, is what you want to do, buying a logbooked car will have you racing when you want to be, not waiting until next year because you missed the last school offered because a little widget needed in your build arrived a day late.

That said, I know you probably want to build your own, and if you choose the RX-7, I will be happy to tell you what I know...

I know I didn't answer your question completely, but I hope I gave you some stuff to think over.

Cool MR2/LS1 project, BTW!

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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[This message has been edited by lateapex911 (edited September 27, 2004).]

[Jake]

As for cheap to run and easy to work on, I'd say an ITA RX7 or ITA mk1 MR2 are both excellent choices. If you are looking for something less commmon - you'll have to go with the MR2. I am the only MR2 runs in NER, and NER is HUGE! I would definately not say that the MR2 is hard to work on, and parts are dirt cheap. With the great mid-engine balance, tires last forever, and I can usually get at least a full year out of a set of brakes. Plus, I think the MR2 is the most fun to drive - no live axle to fight with, no carbs, and precise steering. Since it is a newer car, it should be more reliable as a whole. More on my MR2 at www.racerjake.com

As for competitive? None of the listed car has a snowballs chance of winning as currently classed. I can usually keep up with the best RX7's, but CRX's and Integra's in IT are at a different level entirely with power to weight. Plan on mid- to upper-mid pack at best with any of those cars. Of course, that doesn't mean that you won't have fun!

[CaptainWho]

Originally posted by Jake:
As for competitive? None of the listed car has a snowballs chance of winning as currently classed.

Well, if you're in a division or region that runs the IT7 class, you can at least run with other 7's. Then it's up to the driver to get to the front.

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Doug "Lefty" Franklin
NutDriver Racing

[Geo]

Originally posted by Jake:
As for competitive? None of the listed car has a snowballs chance of winning as currently classed.

The 240Z is still a competitive chassis in ITS.


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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[mgyip]

Gee, that's a tough one. The MR2 and RX7 aren't very competitive in ITA these days. With the introduction of yet another Honda (Acura) into ITA for next season, the MR2 and RX7 will only move further down the food chain along my my GTi The MR2 is a better choice of the two b/c it's mid-engine and it has electronic fuel infection which can be "tweaked" per SCCA's rules. The RX7, like my VW can't take advantage of those modificaitons.

The 240Z is still somewhat competitive in ITS although (as has been noted) the E36 BMW is the car to beat.

Depending on your geographic location, build an RX7 for IT7 or even Spec RX7. In ITA, they're just not competitive anymore since SCCA opened up the engine management computers. I personally like RX7s but b/c they make excellent brake pads

[fingaz9]

Since you are from Michigan, why don't you come out to Waterford Hills and take a walk through the paddock, Oct 9 and 10 and talk to the folks in ITS, and get their opinion. Note that everyone will tell you different, but most will probably tell you to go the 2nd gen RX route. There are a number of folks running 1st and 2nd gen Rx's and there is only me in a 240. This is my first year racing, so I am not super competitive, although I have had a couple 3rds and a couple of top 5's and a lot of grass in the brake ducts. My vote is go the 240Z route, and see if you can by one that is already an ITS/E prod car and improve from there.
Bret
'72 ITS 240Z

[dave parker]

MGYIP
If you would stop hitting people on the race track then RX7's would not be such good brake pads for you.

Sorry to hijack the thread.
dave parker
wdcr ITC#97

[ITSRX7]

Just to add another car to your consideration list, the 2nd gen RX-7 is a strong choice in ITS.

While a perceived underdog in ITS to the Bimmers, they are:

- Readily available in raw or built form
- Have Mazdaspeed parts source
- Have a ton of cars running and local knowledge
- Are IMHO as fast as you can go for a buck in ITS

Have fun!

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Andy Bettencourt
ITS RX-7 & Spec Miata 1.6 (ITA project)
New England Region R188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com

[Quickshoe]

Raptor,

The 240Z would be my last choice...unless something happens soon to reel in the BMW's.

The Rx7's are plentiful and cheap, not competitive in a strong ITA field, but your region might have the IT7 option. If it does, that would be my choice. If it doesn't, I'd go the Mr2 route and hope that it finds its' way to ITB someday soon.

Good luck, and kudos for doing your homework first!!!

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Daryl DeArman

[JeffYoung]

Join Team Oddball, build a TR8! An AMC Spirit! An Opel GT! A Jensen-Healey! A GT6!

Seriously, of the cars you listed, I think the MR2 in ITS is probably way overmatched although it would seem to be a good canidate to drop back to ITA..... The 1st Gen RX7 is a great starter car and, despite reports to the contrary (sorry Jake) is fully capable of winning against ITA cars. We have at least two here in NCR that beat the ITA field regularly. It just takes a lot of work and the, in deference to Jake, the "right" kind of ITA field.

On to the 240z.....I race an ITS Dinosaur as well (a TR8) and I've been on track with fast 240zs. On the right track, with the right driver and the right prep, they are fully capable of running with the best BMWs. John Williams ate all of our lunch (including on the fastest 325is in the SEDiv) at Barber this year. Also, remember, a 240z won the ARRC in 2002....David Spillman is fast in his Z, and Steve and Bryan Parrish are closing in with their new car.

I would not write this car off yet. I think it is capable of winning and the parts and development are out there for it.

Have fun. I built (over buying, hell had to with a TR8) and while frustrating found it extremely rewarding. It's going to cost more, but that's the facts of racing.

So, there you have it. Lots of knowledge in these posts -- and don't ignore Andy's recommendation. A 2nd Gen RX7 is an excellent choice for S, probably the best choice if you factor in cost to be competitive. These cars have great brakes, good handling and decent to very good power. Well driven and well prepped, they still can beat the BMWs.

Jeff

[GEO46]

Originally posted by fingaz9:
Since you are from Michigan, why don't you come out to Waterford Hills and take a walk through the paddock, Oct 9 and 10 and talk to the folks in ITS, and get their opinion. Note that everyone will tell you different, but most will probably tell you to go the 2nd gen RX route. There are a number of folks running 1st and 2nd gen Rx's and there is only me in a 240. This is my first year racing, so I am not super competitive, although I have had a couple 3rds and a couple of top 5's and a lot of grass in the brake ducts. My vote is go the 240Z route, and see if you can by one that is already an ITS/E prod car and improve from there.
Bret
'72 ITS 240Z

What Bret said. Come on out and talk to people. Bruce Wentzel races an IT7 and ITS Rx7 out there competetively. If you catch him when he's not thrashing or getting ready to go, he'll chat with you. Just don't tell him I told you so.

Also Gordon Glover runs an ITA MR2 there. Another swell guy to talk to.

Unfortunatly, work will prevent me from attending our final race wekkend of "04.

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by fingaz9:
Since you are from Michigan, why don't you come out to Waterford Hills and take a walk through the paddock, Oct 9 and 10 and talk to the folks in ITS, and get their opinion. Note that everyone will tell you different, but most will probably tell you to go the 2nd gen RX route. There are a number of folks running 1st and 2nd gen Rx's and there is only me in a 240. This is my first year racing, so I am not super competitive, although I have had a couple 3rds and a couple of top 5's and a lot of grass in the brake ducts. My vote is go the 240Z route, and see if you can by one that is already an ITS/E prod car and improve from there.
Bret
'72 ITS 240Z

By all means- you must go to the track for this event! I know an RX-7 guy who used to run there, and it seems as though they've got a great thing going on. But remember, it's only one track, and one group of guys. Things are not the same everywhere.

But a comment on what to buy. Do NOT buy an EP RX-7, as the effort to detune it back to IT specs will be huge and expensive, and true legality may elude you for a long time...assuming it is a true EP car!

Finally, a note of caution...I have heard of quite a few sales of front running cars from racer to racer that has resulted in the discovery of illegalities. Not the casual, "oops, I forgot to put the washer bttle in" kinds of things either. (How someone can sell a car, swear it's legal, when they know it will be found out sooner or later is beyond me....everytime I hear such a story the seller goes on my mental..'Never trust so and so again' list)

If you decide to buy a built car, take a knowlegeble friend with you and search the car up and down. Even then, be prepared for a possible issue. Most guys are straight up, but I have been sadly surprised at a few of the stories I have heard lately. Sucks to have an illegal car and not even know it!

Caveat emptor and all that I suppose...but don't let it frighten you off....most guys are straight arrows and will give you the shirts off their backs to get you on the track. A great bunch overall.



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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[Quickshoe]

For clarification folks the Mr2 in question is the ITA Mr2, not the ITS Mr2. I know the signature lists 2 mr2's, but the title of the post refers to the 1st gen Mr2.

Raptor, correct me if I am wrong. It seems there is a split as to which Mr2 you are getting responses about.

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Daryl DeArman

[Raptor13x]

Originally posted by lateapex911:
First you should think about what you want to get out of SCCA IT racing. How competitive do you want to be? How much speed can you afford? The truths of racing can be bent but rarely broken, and one is the relationship between speed and money. Hard work helps, but cash is still required.

As I'm pretty new, and dont have the biggest budget in the world, I cant expect to be number 1 by any means in my first couple years. I want to get out on the track and have some fun, and when I've got the experience and some more funding, start to shoot for the victories. I just like the idea of starting with a good reasonably competitive base.

Originally posted by lateapex911:
And...... I have to give you the standard IT.com "buy- don't build your first car" speech....I know you are more than capable of building the car, but do think about buying a running race car, if you can get your 'work on it jonesing' satisfied elsewhere. New race cars will soak up twice as much money and 10 times the time if you build your own. Plus the logbook has value, and the owner will often mantor and guide you along the SCCA school path (which can be more than a little confusing!). If racing, as opposed to building cars, is what you want to do, buying a logbooked car will have you racing when you want to be, not waiting until next year because you missed the last school offered because a little widget needed in your build arrived a day late.

That said, I know you probably want to build your own, and if you choose the RX-7, I will be happy to tell you what I know...

I know I didn't answer your question completely, but I hope I gave you some stuff to think over.

Cool MR2/LS1 project, BTW!

Thanks for all the help. From prior experience helping out a friend getting into IT racing, I've learned the value of buying a ready-made car rather than building my own. I'd rather buy something that already fits the rules and tinker from there than start from scratch with all the annoying little nuances of the rulebook to consider with every action.

And dang, I didnt realize the MR2 project was getting around so fast. Thanks, it should prove to be one scary monster when its done, hehe


[This message has been edited by Raptor13x (edited September 27, 2004).]

[Raptor13x]

Oh yea, a little more info about experience I have and such... I've been to Waterford Hills a few times, and been on the track for a track day with the Porsche Club of America in my at the time NA '91 MR2. It was just about the most fun I've ever had, theres nothing better than passing the Porsche 911's, BMW's, and Vettes in my run group This one 911 kept kickin my ass, just a touch in the dry, but really bad in the rain. I had like zero rain traction. It was really cool how they had it set up, with classroom instruction in the morning, then on track time with an instructor. He even gave me a ride in his race-modified 911 Carrera 4. Good times

I helped my friend Matt build an RX-7 to race, he got his SCCA license, but ended up not competing as time constraints caused problems.

I drive my RX-7 so much its kinda becoming tiring, I'm not a huge fan of the poor brakes and persistant "wondersteer" as I call it, though I love the smooth powerband and oversteer-rich handling. I absolutely love the old Z-cars, but I'm kinda worried about the rust problems and the cost issues associated with them. Can you use all fiberglass body panels in IT?

One question though... why doesnt the SCCA adjust the minimum weights of the cars to make every type of car more competitive?

[fingaz9]

The way I read the rules, you can't run a fiberglass front end on the 240 in ITS, I believe EP is a different story. Rust and the 240's is definitely an issue for street cars, but my ITS 240 is in really good shape. The floors were a little soft when I bought it, and that was because the PO had stored it outside. Keep the car in the garage when not racing and wash it after racing (especially in the rain) and you won't have a problem. I also own a '73 for the street, and haven't had rust issues since I fixed all the cancer and started keeping it in the garage.


Bret
ITS 240Z

[ITSRX7]

Originally posted by JeffYoung:
Also, remember, a 240z won the ARRC in 2002....Jeff

...remember also that happened ONLY because the top 2 E36's got DQ'd for the PLACEMENT of their ballast. Otherwise, in 2002, they dominated.

AB

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Andy Bettencourt
ITS RX-7 & Spec Miata 1.6 (ITA project)
New England Region R188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by Raptor13x:

I drive my RX-7 so much its kinda becoming tiring, I'm not a huge fan of the poor brakes and persistant "wondersteer" as I call it, though I love the smooth powerband and oversteer-rich handling.

In racing trim, the brakes are adequate. It is legal to use the GSL ltd slip disc rear end. And the "wondersteer" commment is teh first I have heard. Check your idler bushing. It fails regularrly due to the proximiity to the hot exhaust. The handling can be made friendlier too. The oversteer looses its charm after 2 laps!

I absolutely love the old Z-cars, but I'm kinda worried about the rust problems and the cost issues associated with them. Can you use all fiberglass body panels in IT?

As others have said, f-glass is a big no-no, except in an airdam, where it is fine. I am not aware of the cost of getting a Z car competitive, but if your long term goal is to have a competitive base for your chosen class, choosing ITS will be your most expensive choice in all probability. Currently, when the best in the class show up, the E36 runs and hides. That may change, but currently thats the bottom line. The RX-7 is NOT the choice for A either, but obviously it IS the choice for IT7!

One question though... why doesnt the SCCA adjust the minimum weights of the cars to make every type of car more competitive?

Well, this is THE homerun question....

You have entered our little world at perhaps ITs most dynamic period in it's 20 year history. The category was oriinally intended as a place to run old out of eligibility SS cars, and a few others as well. A middle ground between Prod and SS, it was designed to give the "regional" guy a place to race, but was set up so that "serious" folk would want to race in Prod, and do the whole National/Runoffs thing, because Prod has weight and other adjustments to acheive model to model parity.

Over the years though, the Prod classes became increasingly archaic, the adjustment thing didn't always create the 100% level field as hoped, and one rule change after another made the category very difficult to prep for. IT, with it's simpler rule set, made prep easier, and while the cars were never perfectly equal, they were, for the most part pretty close. There were lots of fun cars classiffied that folks could pick up and campaign inexpensively (remember the ITC Rabbit fields?) and the category flourished.

But, as any category ages, it runs into a new vs. old issue. How to allow the new cars without dissing the old. And over 20 years, the brainpower that classed the cars (set the race weights) changed a zillion times, and it is hard to deny that some bias and illogic crept into the process over the years. Not to mention the occasional honest mistake!

So, over the past two years or so there has been a movement to change the rule that states "Adjustments will not be allowed" to one that incorporates an adjustment system. (Do a search here for "competition adjustmets", and you will see some of the most interesting threads this site has witnessed...and a veritble history lesson of the competition adjustment movement in IT)

Eventually, someone suggested (man what a bright guy he was ) a form of "limted adjustemnt", which would allow changes to cars like the BMW, where it is agreed that the classing is grossly wrong, but leave the majority of the field alone, as it was felt by a lot of folk that stability was a major calling card of the category. Essentially the idea was to reel back the over acheivers in classes where there were problems, and if it could be seen that there were obvious well driven and prepped cars that were better suited for the class below, that they could be moved as well.

Fast forward to today. The proposal for "Preformance Compensation Adjustments" (I THINK thats what it stands for!), known as "PCAs", went before the Board of Directors this past month, and while there has been no official confirmation, it is a badly kept secret that it passed.

So, IT will be seeing some changes. Search the archives of the SCCA site under "proposed rule changes" in the "Garage" section, I think, and you will see the proposed car moves, and weight changes that are in the works. Basically the first round has the back markers in ITS (Neon, NX-2000, SE-R) moving down to A, as well as some of the same for A to B.

Notably absent from the proposed adjustments are changes to the weight or classing of the ITS 944, the ITS E-36, the ITA RX-7 and MR-2, all cars that are considered widely to have "issues" but I guess the best solution has not been agreed on.

So.............you asked! Sorry for the long winded answer. But read between the lines....The category is changing. The Z car could get more competitive if the board fixes the BMW. The ITA RX-7 though, is getting dumped on even worse...ironically one of the "poster children" for the need for PCAs (a once competitive car relegated to has been status by newer classifications) sees even more competition in the form of 3 more cars coming into ITA from ITS! So, there are winners (hopefully, and likely, there are more of them), and there are losers.

In the end, the basic "There is no guarantee of competiveness" clause remains, but for the most part, it should be easier to pick a car that will give you that good "base" you desire. The ARRCs are coming...lets see what happens there!


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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[GEO46]

Originally posted by lateapex911:
By all means- you must go to the track for this event! I know an RX-7 guy who used to run there, and it seems as though they've got a great thing going on. But remember, it's only one track, and one group of guys. Things are not the same everywhere.

HIjack-sortof. Just out of curiosity, which former WHRRI RX-7 guy are you refering to?