Junior Member
Wonder how many ITS customers these have been sold to
<a href=http://www.turnermotorsport.com/html/detail.asp?PRODUCT_ID=4373>Are these legal?</a>
We might want to watch out for these at the ARRC. I know the most of the BMWs in the Southeast don't use these cams but from the ad it appears that someone at Turner knows that cams don't get checked to often and they can be used in an IT motor. How did they learn this?
Senior Member
If a part is advertised as a "cheater" cam and it is more aggressive than stock, I highly doubt it could be deemed legal.
Jim
ITS RX7
no cheater cams here.
Senior Member
That ad is quite disturbing. Personally, I think the penalty for such a cheat should be draconian.
It's not a casual cheat, it clearly is designed to add power. You have to go out of your way ($800 plus the time and/or money for installation) to use it. And it's highly unlikely the PO installed it before you bought it.
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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com
Senior Member
My favorite thing about this is that the person who posted it has a post count of 1...
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Bill
Planet 6 Racing
bill (at) planet6racing (dot) com
Administrator
I've said it before and I'll say it again: the E36 is such a far superior vehicle that any E36 driver who feels the need to cheat is just flat out ignorant and stupid.
There's no value in cheating: you're gonna stomp on all the other non-E36 cars anyway (and if you don't, you need to spend your money at Bondurant, not the parts store). If you're *all* cheating, there's no advantage to it. And, if you do cheat and go even faster, you're setting yourself and your BMW compadres for a massive b*t*h-slapping when the talks of PCA adjustments and requests come around in a few weeks when Fastrack is published.
Spend more money, win races you were gonna win anyway, and get b*t*h-slapped: why would you want to do something so stupid?
(shrug)
Senior Member
"Excellent condition"? Are these things used? 800 bucks for used cams? And people claim safety gear is expensive.
Okay, they aren't used, they are "track experienced". Now I get it.
George is right, someone should nail this guy--or his buyer. Hmm, anyone have a cam profile for a stock E36 M3 cam? Hmm?
Gregg
Senior Member
Remember folks, most of Turner's business is hyped-up street stuff. Cool upgrade for his target market.
I don't like the implications but lets not go on a witch-hunt.
AB
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Andy Bettencourt
ITS RX-7 & Spec Miata 1.6 (ITA project)
New England Region R188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com
Member
I dont think ITS guys should be using regular M3 cams either.
Senior Member
That's exactly what I was thinking. I wonder if the 'cheater' comment came out of the rumor that BMW was supplying alternate cams w/ the same part # as the stock cam, to some 'select' competitors. Things that make you go hmmm....Originally posted by seamus88:
I dont think ITS guys should be using regular M3 cams either.
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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608
Senior Member
Very true. I'm hoping no one is using these or any other hot cams. I do feel anyone getting caught with hot cams should receive draconian repercussions.Originally posted by ITSRX7:
Remember folks, most of Turner's business is hyped-up street stuff. Cool upgrade for his target market.
I don't like the implications but lets not go on a witch-hunt.
That said, I don't even like to see an ad like this because all it does is lead others to think "all the other kids are doing it" or perhaps that all the winners are. Very bad form for a shop to even suggest, even indirectly, the use of illegal cams.
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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com
Senior Member
I think we can hope all we want but there is no question that there are illegal cams out there. Or illegal cam timing. I'm of the opinion that it's naiave to think that even "reputable" race shops aren't selling cheater valve gear to people who want to buy it.
Check the cam key on every ITB Golf in the US and you are going to find several with offsets that don't simply bring the timing back to OE specs. If you DON'T find an offset key, check the cam: There are just too many readily available mild "street" cams out there.
Check every Sunbelt-engined Miata and you'll find some slop that can be optimized to result in better overlap. Changing this on one of these bad boys is like swapping out the cam in my 8v SOHC VW. I've seen what this trick can do for 16v GTIs.
I heard a great story this past weekend about an ITS BMW at Roebling Road this season, that "broke" and opted not to run the race after a protest was trotted out - complete with an OE 325 head assembly for comparison.
K
Senior Member
Kirk,
I don't know how many cams are available for the Golfs (hydraulic lifters). I do know that there are a boatload of cams for the solid lifter cars (Rabbits, Sciroccos, etc.) And they'll work in a 1.6, 1.7, or 1.8.
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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608
Senior Member
First for the record, I didn't post this. But of course I had to know it was coming after 3 emails this morning - doesn't take long for the poop to fly... Will put it up as a joke, but of course I wouldn't be shocked to see them in an ITS car somewhere - where else would they go? Anyone else would use a stock M3 cam for half the price.Originally posted by Bill Miller:
That's exactly what I was thinking. I wonder if the 'cheater' comment came out of the rumor that BMW was supplying alternate cams w/ the same part # as the stock cam, to some 'select' competitors. Things that make you go hmmm....
Of course this cam is out there, we all had a hissy fit last year over it and our shop offered to buy a pair to profile at the ARRC to compare with stock if the need came up. I also have stock M3 cams and will be more than happy to pack them on the trailer, but you can pull a valve cover in 15 minutes and visually see the differences that cannot be disguised if you have seen enough BMW cams.
Seriously, no point. It just makes everyone in an E36 look bad if you motor past other good cars and park it in the turns.
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-----------------------------------------------------------
James Clay
http://www.bimmerworld.com
Engineered BMW Performance
2003 ITS ARRC Champions
(540) 639-9648
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Senior Member
Wow....
Someone help me. Is it legal to run M3 cams in an E36?? Are they the same??
I searched for a post I made awhile ago, but I think it must be gone. I was about this very thing.
Some guy is advertising "Undetectable cheater ITB cams" for BMWs. I emailed him for clarification, and his response to me was, "I make money...why do I care what they are used for? It's not like I'm selling guns to kids", or something along those lines.
Pretty disgusting when a company sees enough of a market to design, tool, and build a product that not only condones cheating, but creates an environment that is very tempting. He's a guy I would like to meet in person.
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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]
Senior Member
That ad does not impress me with Turner Motorsports... Makes me wonder how legal the Speed Touring cars are....
I can't believe that a company would condone cheeting... I will never suggest or recomend any company that promotes cheeters.
your thoughts?
Raymond Blethen
RST Performance Racing
Senior Member
Jake expose this person "making Money" not to get him business but to make him look bad.. this stuff is rediculouse...
Raymond
Administrator
Interesting post. I just spoke a few days ago to an experience SCCA racer that had raced in IT,Production, and other classes. I mentioned my IT prep and car and discussed some other things, among them the BMW story I'd read here regarding heads at the race and folks not staying after someone bringing a stock head into registration.
His response was a little strange, at least it seemed to me, indicating that lots of folks run M3 cams etc. and with them, and a little work, a stock 325 could make what a high dollar IT prep motor could and be much cheaper to boot. When I mentioned that sounded like cheating to me, he expressed his opinion that people have done it, do it, and it is not that irregualar and therefore, not particularily illegal.
To each his own I suppose. I'll stick with 100% stock on mine and run the car where it falls. Heck, I'm out to have a good time, meet some cool folks, and help as many as I can with what little I can bring to the table. Just hope lots of people aren't doing this sort of thing regardless of the car, seems it'd spoil the sport.
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Ron
http://www.gt40s.com
Lotus Turbo Esprit
BMW E36 M3
RF GT40 Replica
Jensen-Healey: IT prep progressing!
Senior Member
Only been out there about a season and a half, but best I can tell most don't cheat. A few do though......
Senior Member
OK, here you go. The power of Google. (I couldn't find my old post on here, so I entered "BMW 2002 cams" and got:
Their website is www.racetep.com/bmwngin.html Look them up and judge for yourself."ITB Stealth Cheater Grind for IT Racing. Stock Lift. 286 duration. Works good with stock springs.
Top-End Performance
7452 Varna Ave
N.Hollywood CA 91605
(818)764-1901 (818)764-0155 fax
e-mail: [email protected]
About the E36 cams... this was Will's idea of a "comment"? Hmmm...
Looks like the shop above is more serious about selling parts no matter the ethics.
(I looked for the old email reply I got from the guy, but it was in the AOL days, long lost, I am afraid,...he was pretty testy about the whole thing as I remember!)
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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]
[This message has been edited by lateapex911 (edited September 17, 2004).]
[This message has been edited by lateapex911 (edited September 17, 2004).]
Administrator
Interesting! The "stock lift different duration" trick is a little hard to see by just pulling the cam cover and putting a dial indicator on the cam. Lots of parts out there to tempt the BMW guys, that is for sure. Build some odd cars and you are lucky to get a stock cam that is servicable, as I am quickly finding out!
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Ron
http://www.gt40s.com
Lotus Turbo Esprit
BMW E36 M3
RF GT40 Replica
Jensen-Healey: IT prep progressing!
[This message has been edited by rlearp (edited September 17, 2004).]
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