Wonder how many ITS customers these have been sold to

[James Clay]

Originally posted by rlearp:
His response was a little strange, at least it seemed to me, indicating that lots of folks run M3 cams etc. and with them, and a little work, a stock 325 could make what a high dollar IT prep motor could and be much cheaper to boot. When I mentioned that sounded like cheating to me, he expressed his opinion that people have done it, do it, and it is not that irregualar and therefore, not particularily illegal.

That is pushing it - right past legal. I have had customers say the same thing. You can't guess how much a built motor is making, then cheat it up to get the same amount of power from a stock motor.

If this was a comment, honestly as well as I get along with Will, it was, well... No reason to descriminate against SE cars. They are fast because the level of competition is high and honestly the fastest cars should be running legal. I know of several M3 cams being used which is their choice, and only one isn in the SE. Also a 2.8 out there. Why does it always have to be about the SE?

------------------
-----------------------------------------------------------
James Clay
http://www.bimmerworld.com
http://www.bimmerworldracing.com
Engineered BMW Performance
2003 ITS ARRC Champions
(540) 639-9648
-----------------------------------------------------------

[Seth Thomas]

I don't see why anybody would even need to use these cams in ITS. The BMW does not need to be cheated up as no car should be. In my opinion it goes against the spirit of IT racing. But we do know there are people out there that will do what it takes to try to win.

I have not raced ITS this year so I am not current on what is going on out there. I can say that last year I didn't hear of anyone doing anything of that nature. And if anybody knows the rules for the E36 BMW it is James. My ARRC winning car (which he built)last year was definitely 100% legal. Even the tech stewards afterwards told me the car was dead nuts on.

[ITSRX7]

I was just talking about why there is a "Regionality" in the 'car for the class' perception this weekend at a Regional.

In the SE, the RX-7's are the majority and are still one of the cars to have...why? I would say it has something to do with the proximity to ISC and SpeedSource, two of the best RX-7 builders in the country.

In the Mid Atlantic, Bimmers tend to dominate. Why? Bimmerworld in VA. Local access to the brains and the talent is key.

In the NE, there are no real tuners specializing in either, so what is cheaper is prominant. With the emergence of Autotechnic out of CT, there are more and more Bimmers showing up as thses guys run at track records on momentum tracks and lead year long points battles.

Long story short? The top IT 'tuners' are based largely in what most consider the Southeast, not to mention that is where the unoffical championship is held...so that is where you get your bias.

FWIW, I would never blame Bimmerworld, Turner, Speedsource, Rebello, Sunbelt, etc for any illegalities to a car. These guys are in business to make the guy with the checkbook happy. They ask for it, they get it. If that means building a car with illgal cams, so be it. It's the ENTRANT/DRIVER/OWNER who puts the illegal car on the track and knows it - and who should take the whack.

AB

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Andy Bettencourt
ITS RX-7 & Spec Miata 1.6 (ITA project)
New England Region R188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com

[This message has been edited by ITSRX7 (edited September 17, 2004).]

[Eagle7]

Originally posted by ITSRX7:
...FWIW, I would never blame Bimmerworld, Turner, Speedsource, Rebello, Sunbelt, etc for any illegalities to a car. These guys are in business to make the guy with the checkbook happy. They ask for it, they get it. If that means building a car with illgal cams, so be it. It's the ENTRANT/DRIVER/OWNER who puts the illegal car on the track and knows it - and who should take the whack.

Wait a minute. Are you saying you'd give a pass to these guys if they installed the illegal part in the guy's car?

Selling a part might be iffy - you don't know what the buyer might do with it. But if they put it in the car there's no justification in the world. These guys are part of this racing community, and if they install it, they're conspiring to cheat. Plain and simple (at least to me).

------------------
Marty Doane
ITS RX-7 #13
CenDiv WMR

[Greg Amy]

Nope, I'm with Andy on this.

Business is business, and Club Racing is decisively not. If someone is in the business of supplying aftermarket parts, it is not their concern - or ethical dilemna - if those parts are used in a manner inconsistent with SCCA rules. The onus is most decisively on the entrant and competitor to verify the legality of their vehicle (and I believe this is also codified in the regulations.)

A businessman has responsiblities to the stakeholders of his/her business, including investors and customers, and to themselves. How they choose to handle that is their business and none other.

Now, if that business were to deceive their customer into falsely believing the sold/installed parts were legal, when in fact they were not, that's a different story. The entrant still has the responsibility for legality, and if they choose to delegate that responsibility to a vendor they're still accountable, but that vendor's deception is certainly worthy of adverse reputation in the marketplace.

But, responsible to SCCA and its competitors? Hardly.

[Ron Earp]

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">. I know of several M3 cams being used which is their choice, and only one isn in the SE. Also a 2.8 out there. Why does it always have to be about the SE?</font>

Are you saying that you know of a few BMWs running M cams, and only one isn't in the Southeast? That would mean a few ARE in the SE. Or, did you mean only one IS in the SE?


------------------
Ron
http://www.gt40s.com
Lotus Turbo Esprit
BMW E36 M3
RF GT40 Replica
Jensen-Healey: IT prep progressing!

[ITSRX7]

Originally posted by grega:
Now, if that business were to deceive their customer into falsely believing the sold/installed parts were legal, when in fact they were not, that's a different story.

Exactly. Giving the customer what they want is one thing - and what I was explaining. Telling the customer they are legal when they are not, that is another - and something I am SURE none of the aforementioned companies would do.

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
ITS RX-7 & Spec Miata 1.6 (ITA project)
New England Region R188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com

[Geo]

Originally posted by grega:
A businessman has responsiblities to the stakeholders of his/her business, including investors and customers, and to themselves. How they choose to handle that is their business and none other.

True.

But I would think that good tuners/builders would not want to be associated with cheating. Perhaps I'm too Polyanna? If I were building race cars and/or race engines, I wouldn't want to knowingly build something illegal. I think it's bad form. But I may be rare in thinking that.


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[m glassburner]

What about sealed engines and transmisions..I know it sounds corny...but what if you had everything ready call tech guy or gal measure check and assemble hmmmm has potential I think.....yes...no...I know it would'nt work all the time(like necessary repairs at track and such)broken seals no seals needs to be checked.It has seals good to go....oh well it's just an idea...

[gsbaker]

Originally posted by m glassburner:
What about sealed engines and transmisions..I know it sounds corny...

This is one solution to the problem. It works in Spec Racer Ford. I know, the engines are sealed at the factory, but they could be sealed at an annual inspection or elsewhere.

At some circle tracks the engines are checked and sealed before the race. Rare, but it does happen.

Gregg

[Ron Earp]

Originally posted by gsbaker:
This is one solution to the problem. It works in Spec Racer Ford. I know, the engines are sealed at the factory, but they could be sealed at an annual inspection or elsewhere.

How would engines be sealed, or better yet, what is the source for these? Unless everyone is racing basically the same type of car this would be impossible. There is no source for engines at all for JHs, TR8s, Mantas, Alfas, etc. - heck, I'm having a hard time finding basic parts (no complaints, it is part of the fun). Sounds like to me this solution would make it a spec class, and, if so we might as well just all build spec Miatas and be done with it.

Wait, I think I understand. I build it, you inspect it, then seal it with marks, wires, etc. Sorry.

------------------
Ron
http://www.gt40s.com
Lotus Turbo Esprit
BMW E36 M3
RF GT40 Replica
Jensen-Healey: IT prep progressing!

[This message has been edited by rlearp (edited September 18, 2004).]

[Edwin Robinson]

Originally posted by ITSWannabe:
<a href=http://www.turnermotorsport.com/html/detail.asp?PRODUCT_ID=4373>Are these legal?</a>

We might want to watch out for these at the ARRC. I know the most of the BMWs in the Southeast don't use these cams but from the ad it appears that someone at Turner knows that cams don't get checked to often and they can be used in an IT motor. How did they learn this?

I need one of these for my Neon....

I've been wondering why I can't keep up with those 325's!
;^)
~E.

[Dick Elliott]

Where have you people been for the last 30 years? Cam companys started makeing cheater cams with stock lift and duration for NHRA that were so hard to find that NHRA finaly made them legal. The adverage SCCA tech inspector will never be able to catch one. SCCA should take a page from NHRA and make the so call'd cheater cams legal as long as lift and duration are stock. Those two checks are no brain'ers.

[Bill Miller]

Originally posted by James Clay:
That is pushing it - right past legal. I have had customers say the same thing. You can't guess how much a built motor is making, then cheat it up to get the same amount of power from a stock motor.

If this was a comment, honestly as well as I get along with Will, it was, well... No reason to descriminate against SE cars. They are fast because the level of competition is high and honestly the fastest cars should be running legal. I know of several M3 cams being used which is their choice, and only one isn in the SE. Also a 2.8 out there. Why does it always have to be about the SE?

To me, this is one of the things that perpetuates the problem. We have people that state that they know of cheater cars, yet don't protest the people, or 'out' them. I know it gets thorny if you're not 100% certain, but geez. And, in this particular case, I would think the E36 crowd would want to do anything they could to make sure that the cars don't get slapped w/ unnecessary weight (assuming PCA's passed) because people are running cheated-up cars!

And James, there's really someone out there running a 328??? I would think this car should be tearing up the track (even more so than the E36's currently do). Did the driver figure it was cheaper to just throw in a stock 2.8 rather than go w/ a built 2.5? Does he suck that bad as a driver that he can't use the extra displacement?

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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[gsbaker]

There is a variation on the sealed engine theme that is rather interesting, because it accomodates those folks who don't want to seal their engines: Offer the option of running an unsealed engine, but those who elect to do so are placed at a disadvantage.

I've seen this in a circle track series in the south (FASCAR Late Models?) and it is pretty slick. All cars in the class must build their V8s to the same engine spec. If the builder does this and has it validated by tech, tech seals the engine and he can run a 4 barrel carb. If the builder only claims to have a legal engine and refuses a tech inspection and sealing, he is allowed to run but must use a 2 barrel carb.

Anyone can be protested.

There are a lot of really fast two barrels out there.

Gregg

[Geo]

Originally posted by rlearp:
Wait, I think I understand. I build it, you inspect it, then seal it with marks, wires, etc. Sorry.

So you need an SCCA tech inspector in your garage from the start of the engine build to the finish so they can bless your engine?


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[gsbaker]

Originally posted by Geo:
So you need an SCCA tech inspector in your garage from the start of the engine build to the finish so they can bless your engine?

No, the engine has an annual inspection for a seal, just like your helmet has an annual inspection for a sticker.

The inspector isn't going to perform a machine version of a rectal exam on every engine, but they have the authority to do so. As Kirk noted, random testing is a deterrent to the cheater. They must present their car and it might get poked and prodded. Now, it's only poked and prodded if someone coughs up the bond $.

Gregg

[Geo]

Originally posted by gsbaker:
No, the engine has an annual inspection for a seal, just like your helmet has an annual inspection for a sticker.

The inspector isn't going to perform a machine version of a rectal exam on every engine, but they have the authority to do so. As Kirk noted, random testing is a deterrent to the cheater. They must present their car and it might get poked and prodded. Now, it's only poked and prodded if someone coughs up the bond $.

Gregg

So what have we gained?


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[Bill Miller]

Originally posted by Geo:
So what have we gained?

George,

If that kind of system deters cheaters, what we gain is having less cheaters out there. The fewere people that are 'doing it', the less you get the 'hey, everyone else is doing it', and it becomes less acceptable. Is it perfect? No, but it's probably better than what we have now.

------------------
MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[Geo]

Originally posted by Bill Miller:
George,

If that kind of system deters cheaters, what we gain is having less cheaters out there. The fewere people that are 'doing it', the less you get the 'hey, everyone else is doing it', and it becomes less acceptable. Is it perfect? No, but it's probably better than what we have now.

If the engine is only "poked and prodded" when someone files papers, I don't see what is gained. Not trying to be difficult. Perhaps I've missed something.


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com