Philosophical Issue - Do we let newbies screw up?

[Knestis]

There's been a surge recently in the, "Hey, build whatever you want and come have fun!" kind of response when people ask about building an <insert model of car here>.

I am NOT picking on anyone in particular but am I the only one who thinks that MAYBE we do people who are just starting in this game a disservice by not explaining some of the harsher realities about this kind of decision?

Some people (hey, Jeff!) do manage against the odds and diversity is great but it seems like too many don't survive the steep part of the learning curve with their enthusiasm and credit rating intact.

Same goes for the build vs. buy question, the "How can I be a professional racer?" question, the "How much does it cost?" question, etc.

SCCA membership has hovered around 50K for ages now and I've never done a formal study obviously but I'd guess that the average club racing career is about 3 years - and that's including the outliers who last for decades. Turnover is a huge issue for this organization and it bothers me a little that new racers are pretty much left to their own devices to sometimes assure that they blow out early.

I'm not saying that I would have listened to good advice had I gotten any, but isn't it worth it to try? Even running the risk of being seen as a wet blanket or destroying someone's dream?

K

[CaptainWho]

I'm with you Kirk. We just got started, and it took a lot of work to even come close to figuring this stuff out on our own. We were lucky to hook up with some good "elmers" (Ham-speak for a mentor) early on, and they're good friends to this day. But we had to take the initiative to do it ourselves, and we hit a couple of bad eggs on the way up the ladder. It would be nice if there was an easy way for newbies and elmers to hook up in the first place. The track during an event isn't it. The potential elmers are, of course, intent on their racing and prep. This problem is common to most "volunteer run" hobbies, like ham radio. When trying to work out our path to licenses, it really did seem like the SECRET Car Club of America.

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Doug "Lefty" Franklin
NutDriver Racing

[benracin]

I think I would have to agree. This is my second year in this and it was pretty hard figuring out how, where, when to do this. Although the SCCA's website looks much better, for the fun of it a little while ago I tried to find out information on getting started and couldn't. Actually, when I was thinking about getting started I found this website. If it wasn't for this place I'd probably still be lost. I know there's lots of phone numbers out there a person can call but most people will just give up if they can't find it on the web.

Living up here in Minnesota it's a little harder since most tracks are 7 hours away. Makes it hard to get people interested. I'm 29 and would love to see more folks my age. I think the "tuner revolution" has had a little to do with this as well, but I think mostly it's a lack of information.

Most SCCA regional websites only post results and maybe a schedule. I think more of these sites need a big "how do I get started" or "ask a racer" type sections for those folks who are interested.

One thing this site is great at that, if I ever get around to making my own will for sure be on there, is helping people find resources. If a person decides they want to build a car, where can get they a cage? Where 's a good place to order tires? Know of someone who does carb work? Deciding to go racing brings up a huge list of unknowns and this site and the swell people on it have helped clear a lot of that up for me. Now that TV shows on Speed and magazines are making refrence to the SCCA, I think they, and the regions, need to help those interested get the information they are looking for.

Man it's late for a school night.

Ben.

[lateapex911]

I'm not sure I agree that we, on thsi site have been remiss in our advice to newcomers, but I will agree that the road to racing is not what it could be as the SCCA is concerned.

Having said that, I also understand the solutions are complicated and not without cost.

From the IT.com viewpoint I think that the chorus of "buy don't build" is always strong, but when some one says, "yup, I got it, I understand I will be a midpack guy and thats cool", we DO rejoice in the potential diversity.

There have been several good issuesc about getting started over the years on Sportscar, as well as our regions newsletter, but it's not the kind of monthly thing is it?

I agree whole heartedly that the SCCA should use the web site as a place to school the newbies, and old articles like that should be archived and linked.

Another "newbie" issue is the "throw 'em in with the sharks method that the SCCA has always followed. it succeeds for some, but fails for others. We really need to have more training before a new driver is given his ticket to ride. I have seen lots of incidents recently that were caused by rookie mistakes. Expensive incidents.
More training would help...but with limited dates available to run races on in the first place, we are reluctant to give these dates up for schools.

It is a tough problem, but it needs to broached, because clubs like PCA, BMWCCA, and NASA, all of which have extensive and long driver training systems, are offering marque racing, which is attractive to the new racer. But SCCA must find a way to keep the racers happy as well as safe.

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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[jc836]

I am an old-timer from back before the membership cards had numbers on them. Even the 1976 PCS and Rules were printed in pocket sized books (I still have those). We have come a very long way from Westport and the day of no sponsors on the side of the cars. The cost of racing has always been higher than one might like and so too the learning curve at each track-we all agree seat time is important. I agree that, in the age of instant information retreival, there should be a better way to both bring in and inform people about what we do and how to do it.

I am seeing far more of the "tuner" programming than I am comfortable with. This versus what we are about makes the situation even more difficult. Building a "tuner car" or even drifting is NOT what we are about. Can SCCA find a way to offer our sport in a TV friendly way-I think it is possible to do that. There was a series from the UK about rebuilding an E-type that went over very well here. How about building and racing (IT) a recognized car (CRX for example) in a year long documentary form? This could help those interested become active.

I have chosen to go a slightly different route with car prep in the hope that this time I can be on track more. The 'younger generation' has more disposable income so it seems. Then again do they really? Another thing is attention span for our activity. People today seem to have a threshold for staying involved that is shorter than in times past.

Just some thoughts from Grandpa.

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Grandpa's toys-modded suspensions and a few other tweaks
'89 CRX Si-SCCA ITA #99
'99 Prelude=a sweet song
'03 Dodge Dakota Club Cab V8-Patriot Blue gonna tow

[Ron Earp]

Nice thread, coming from a newbie. The SCCA is daunting to a new fellow and there does not seem to be a well-laid out path to insure I do everything that I am supposed too. Thanks for the comments on build/buy. I'm comfortable with my JH because I know I have the skills to build it up, but, I also except I'll be last in line. Hopefully not forever, but at least for awhile.

I do have one request - can anyone tell me exactly what I have to do to get my license? This doesn't seem easy either and I really like the part about you must have a race car to get one, Catch-22. Jeff Y. and his partner have offered me rental of their spec Miata and I hope to be able to use it to get the job done but I need to know where to go, who to talk too, etc.

Thanks much,
Ron

[dickita15]

ron
the normal path is 2 scca drivers schools. before you do that you need the paperwork, medicl ect. some regions have a driver licence person to help or you can do all the paperwork with topeka.

kirk I understand but as jake said i think the good advise is given but logic will not overcome blind enthusiasum. we almost always tell new guys to crew or work events to learn. they are almost always too busy to partake of this learning opportunity.
dick

[JLawton]

I think a regional mentor list would be helpfull. People who are willing to take e-mails, spend time with rookies or potential racers at the track, guide them through the licensing process, steer them towards technical help.

My first year was very challenging. You don't know anybody, don't know the proper procedures or who to turn to.

This list would be posted on the regional web site, maybe broken down by class??

My thoughts........

[Ron Earp]

Dick, thanks for the info and these are just the details that can be confusing. What drivers schools are appropriate? When should I do them, if I hope to race next year? What do I need to attened?

I think I can dig this info up and am starting to do that this week. I've got a good person locally, Jeff Young, who is helping me a lot and in turn I hope to help him and his wrench on cars or do what is needed. I like helping people and lending a hand when I can.

I'd like to crew for his folks at the Enduro in October - what do I need to do that? (I'd ask Jeff but he is on a week long hiking trip).

Ron

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Ron
http://www.gt40s.com
Lotus Turbo Esprit
BMW E36 M3
RF GT40 Replica
Jensen-Healey: IT prep progressing!

[dickita15]

ron because the school are run less often than races it will be a matter of finding ones close that fit you schedule. we are talking about scca schools run by regions not pro schools here. if you were in the northeast i could tell you what schools are well run. it is good if you can take a school at a track you will be racing at. gives you a leg up. seeing you are starting from square one car and driver maybe you could rent a car for your first school this fall and run your car in a school next spring.

I think you are in the SE. the october WDC school at summit is very good.

oh yea and go to the track every regional race you can make. work crew or just walk around and meet people. it will pay off.


kirk sorry for the thread drift.

dick(ita) cha cha cha

[CaptainWho]

Jake: I'm sorry if I wasn't clear. I didn't mean that this was necesarily something that IT.com should be taking the lead on or something that they weren't doing right. The IT.com community has been a great help to us and I expect that to continue. This is something I feel national should be taking the lead on.

Ron: If you've already joined the SCCA, then look in the back of the SportsCar issues and you'll see a list of accredited "for pay" schools. If you take those schools and do reasonably well, you'll come away with a Novice permit.

The other alternative is to do a few High Performance Drivers' Ed (HPDE) events, then take the two SCCA schools. The SCCA schools will be listed on your regional or divisional schedule. In the SEDiv, for example, they're usually at Roebling early in the year, Moroso, Homestead, and VIR, late in the year.

Either way, you then have to complete two races with a "rookie X" on the stern. You'll turn in your Novice logbook at registration, and you have to get the Chief Steward or his designate to sign off that you completed satisfactorily. That mostly means that they don't know who you are when you ask for the signature, because they haven't had to talk to you and you haven't come home on a hook. :-)

Once you've got signatures for at least two races (more if you want, details in GCR) you make Xerox copies of every page of the Novice logbook for your records and send the log book and some cash to Topeka. They'll send back your Regional competition license.

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Doug "Lefty" Franklin
NutDriver Racing

[This message has been edited by CaptainWho (edited August 31, 2004).]

[ITSRX7]

Even though I agree in principle, I have to put the onus back on the newbie. If you are entering into something like this, you have to know it ain't gonna be easy, and be ready to do yor homework. The path SHOULD be well documented but there are SOOO many steps after that, that the newbie has to be agressive in finding out info.

NER does a great job. Look here:
http://www.ner.org/RR/howto_rr.html

2 clicks on scca.com netted this:
http://www.scca.com/Club/DriversSchool.asp...30&x=030|020&~=

One more intuitive click got me here:
http://www.scca.com/Club/Index.asp?IdS=02B...30&x=030|055&~=

I little effort goes a long way.

AB

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Andy Bettencourt
ITS RX-7 & Spec Miata 1.6 (ITA project)
New England Region R188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com

[Edwin Robinson]

Originally posted by CaptainWho:
Jake: I'm sorry if I wasn't clear. I didn't mean that this was necesarily something that IT.com should be taking the lead on or something that they weren't doing right. The IT.com community has been a great help to us and I expect that to continue. This is something I feel national should be taking the lead on.

Ron: If you've already joined the SCCA, then look in the back of the SportsCar issues and you'll see a list of accredited "for pay" schools. If you take those schools and do reasonably well, you'll come away with a Novice permit.

The other alternative is to do a few High Performance Drivers' Ed (HPDE) events, then take the two SCCA schools. The SCCA schools will be listed on your regional or divisional schedule. In the SEDiv, for example, they're usually at Roebling early in the year, Moroso, Homestead, and VIR, late in the year.

Either way, you then have to complete two races with a "rookie X" on the stern. You'll turn in your Novice logbook at registration, and you have to get the Chief Steward or his designate to sign off that you completed satisfactorily. That mostly means that they don't know who you are when you ask for the signature, because they haven't had to talk to you and you haven't come home on a hook. :-)

Once you've got signatures for at least two races (more if you want, details in GCR) you make Xerox copies of every page of the Novice logbook for your records and send the log book and some cash to Topeka. They'll send back your Regional competition license.

I think the SCCA should consider getting some traveling instructors on the payroll. Make it a stipend or something. This way- the students will be presented a clearer, more consistent message with a higher level of instruction. I'm sure there's competent racers out there that would be interested in doing this.

The professional schools seem to do a much better job of instruction and coaching. Why not charge a little more for the SCCA schools- but get the students what they are really looking for?

[timelapseracing]

There is a clear and inexpensive way to start, and the newbie that wants to race needs to know something about SCCA and what makes SCCA racing different from single marque racing with another group, or tuner drift events. Our magazines and information don't help in this regard - it's expected that someone would know what 'real' road racing is all about.

Over 15 years ago I started by going to flag races at Road Atlanta. Since then flagging has been a good route for the cost concious participant to see what cars are fast, when a driver is fast no matter what they are in, and when money is fast versus effort.

My first race car was a slow (non-gti) ITB rabbit - this was a newbie choice - not the worst but not the best. The startup costs were quite low, but the potential was low too. I built it myself, but it never had a dnf. Raced it for several years before putting it to pasture and trying to figure out the better way to go.

The risk everyone talks about is buying someone else's mistake or a car that is going to be outclassed. Again - go flag - if a car is mid-pack, you know, don't pay through the nose for it. If you want to be at the pointy end watch the cars that are being developed and understand the 'formulas' for building/buying a fast car - displacement, hp, wt, brakes, balance, etc. As everyone has said there is no replacement for seat time but that doesn't mean telling people - oh sure you can race your xyz grocery getter, and letting them believe that they can be competitive in that car.

Nobody really wants to tell someone how to beat them, and it is the potential buyer/racers responsibility to come in as an educated consumer. Again - spend time watching and learning about the racing. It's not the same as watching world challenge or DTM, and knowing that you want to race...

SCCA doesn't have a feeder program - the karting would work but only if it were part of the SCCA weekend. Look at jr dragsters, quarter midgets, or baby grands, this is where scca has not planned for the next generation of racers.

Sorry for the length - but if you are a newbie - don't start with your wallet - you will empty it quick enough - and just having a car that you think is fun and like to drive to work and back does not necessarily make it a good candidate to race. Find someone who might live within an hour of you who is racing in the class you like and go talk to them - if they build their own cars you will learn a lot - they might not tell you all their tricks but they may tell you how to avoid big mistakes and they will probably give you a good read on cars to look at - maybe give you more names.

Feel free to contact me - this is my first season back in the new car and I've had my share of snags too.

Jason
http://www.mindspring.com/~timelapseracing
MARRS ITA #21 1989 240sx
Washington DC Region F&C when not racing.

[Racerlinn]

As a "noob" myself, a few thoughts. Yes, it is certainly a difficult process, but I don't think it should be easy either. A serious individual will put a bit of research into what they are doing. This is the type of person (i.m.o.) that you want next to you on the track. I am preparing for my first try at club racing next spring at the tender age of 38, after having autocrossed and done lapping events for the last 7 years, after having worked races locally for the last 4 years, after having served on my Regions BoD for the last 4 years, and even including a stint as an R.E.
All this, and I even still find some things that are difficult. Nature of the beast. That's why I enjoy this forum, to be able to see and hear what others think.
As far as driver training, it can be very difficult and expensive to get the opportunity to put that rookie "X" on the car (after spending all the $$ to just prep the car!). I'm in CenDiv, but I'll be traveling to St. Louis Region for their double-school weekend next spring as it is the closest opportunity to get 2 schools in on one weekend.

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Steve
'92 ITS(A?) Sentra SE-R
www.indyscca.org

[gsbaker]

Originally posted by Edwin Robinson:
...The professional schools seem to do a much better job of instruction and coaching. Why not charge a little more for the SCCA schools- but get the students what they are really looking for?

This is, IMHO, a critical point for the newbie to keep in mind. A SCCA "Drivers' School" does not teach you how to drive, it teaches you how to race.

If you know for certain that you want W2W competition, SCCA training is the way to go. However, if you just want to learn to drive a car fast, there are many other options that require fewer resources.

Prior to my first SCCA school I did BMWCCA, Skip Barber and the Porsche Driving Experience. I learned more about racing at the SCCA school, but received the least amount of driving instruction. Of course, that may have been because my instructors concluded there was no room for improvement, but I doubt it.

I too believe SCCA is missing the marketing boat by not offering a HPDE product.

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Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com

[Tristan Smith]

Kirk, you estimate that three years is the average club racer life span, and that turn over is high in SCCA, but I wonder if that is any different than most hobbies. Sure, racing takes a lot more time and money than many hobbies out there. But, I know many people who take up (insert hobby here) only to walk away from it after a few years because of time restraints and life changing events. The question is what can SCCA really do to stop that trend? It seems like those who race long term do so because they choose to overcome the obstacles that are thrown their way. Just a thought.


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Tristan Smith
Buffalo's Southwest Cafe
ITA Nissan 240sx #56

[racer_tim]

The problem I have is that the other "schools" may teach car control, the line, and the flags, but they don't do ANYTHING for the procedures of SCCA racing.

Pre-registration, tech, grid, impound, etc.

We see new racers who don't have a clue about what to do with the vehicle log book once they get through registration, or where the tech sticker goes, etc.

If we want to get new blood into SCCA, we need to come with a standard "mentoring" program, not only a "drivers school" that makes the learning process a little easier.




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Tim Linerud
San Francisco Region SCCA
#95 GP Wabbit
http://linerud.myvnc.com/racing/index.html

[Geo]

I'm not sure how much easier we can make it.

I DO absolutely 100% believe that we do need to offer more schools or somehow redefine the licensing process. For me, I was 100% committed (or was someone trying to get me committeed, I can't remember) to going racing so I did what I needed. But, we also had two schools a few months apart. Now our region runs one double school. That makes it very hard to get a license if you aren't ready for that school. Do we want to make people wait another year to get their license? That seems counter productive.

As for help in choosing a car, that is a mine field nobody in any official or semi-official capacity can or should be involved in. Sure some discussions can and should be had, but the choice belongs to the new car owner. The most that should happen in this area is perhaps pointing someone to where they can find their region's results. The new car onwer is going to have to figure it out for themselves. And not everyone goes into this with the goal of winning.

Reading the rules is yet another issue the newbie needs to deal with. So many people make the rulebook out to be a bad thing. We should instead teach people to embrace it. The rule book is your friend. It tells you everything you can do to your car. Some areas are grey and if the car owner/builder isn't sure they should take the initiative to get a ruling from Topeka. This is just the way racing is and the newbie racer needs to deal with it. This is a good place for people to ask questions before going to Topeka. They could also go to races and talk with people there. If there is any question, Topeka is for sure the place to go. So and so said doesn't cut it. Pretty simple.

Build vs buy is also a mine field. People do what they do for their own reasons. I'm talking with someone right now who is entertaining going IT racing with a 944. On the surface, all he needs to do to go racing is throw in a bolt-in cage and some safety gear. Will he be competitive? Almost certainly not. But he can get out there and try it. And with a bolt-in cage, if he doesn't like it, he can pull it out and be done with racing. If he likes it, then he can rip out the interior, redo the suspension, rebuild the engine with a proper IT build, etc. Bottom line is he could go racing for less than $1,500 plus consumables (tires, brakes, etc.). I'm the other end of the spectrum. This is my first race car (I was lucky enough to have use of another for a few years) and I don't want a car that someone else built. I want to build it the way I think is proper. Others would rather just buy something someone else made and either hope for the best (better luck with more research of course) or redo it over time, much like my friend would build his 944. Who is to say what is right? Who is to say what is cheaper? Let's say I bought a bargain IT car. By the time I gone replacing stuff, I doubt I'd have saved money.

The bottom line is, other than the licesnsing process itself, I'm not sure there is a whole lot more we can do for people. Regional mentors would be nice, but that's a dangerous position as well. We're human beings and advice is going to usually be jaded by our own ideas.


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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[Geo]

Originally posted by racer_tim:
The problem I have is that the other "schools" may teach car control, the line, and the flags, but they don't do ANYTHING for the procedures of SCCA racing.

Pre-registration, tech, grid, impound, etc.

We see new racers who don't have a clue about what to do with the vehicle log book once they get through registration, or where the tech sticker goes, etc.

You know, this is really an excellent observation. I think the first couple of hours of a school should include a tech seminar. Regardless of the state of your logbook, you should have to go through a full tech and have the techs explain what is what. I've been through tech more than I should for various reasons and it's still a process that is a bit daunting.

As a club we should take any mystery out of tech for the new club racer. It would also be a chance for the new racer to get to know some of the tech folks. I know the time I've talked with them when I wasn't running a car through was a much easier conversation. I think we as club racers don't fully appreciate the position they are in as well. So, a more friendly atmosphere for more relaxed conversation by doing a tech seminar in each school could do wonders IMHO.


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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com