what is the right thing to do??

[Team NRG]

I recently competed in the FL. region ECR enduro. As you know the race format is 1.5 hours with a mandatory 5 minute pit stop. At the last race my fuel window was between 1 hour 5 minutes to 1 hour 10 minutes. Under ECR rules, if there is a double yellow, the pits are closed... The lap I planned to enter the pits an accident occured which brought out a double yellow. We circled the track for 4-5 laps and then the race was called because of an injury to one of the drivers (he is ok now. The officials called the race 20 minutes EARLY! They had an excellent reason for stopping the race, HOWEVER, any driver who failed to make their pit stop was moved to last position in class. I am a front runner at every event and was obviously leading this race... I don't understand why I was just automatically DQ'd for getting good fuel milage. What are your thoughts?


Thanks,

Nick

[lateapex911]

Read the supps and the enduro rules. If it desn't atate that cars not completing their mandatory stop will be moved to the back in the event of an early race stoppage, then you have an excellent point.

However, it is probably too late as (and check the supps, the enduro rules and the GCR on this) I doubt you can protest the results at this time.

In the future, check the results when they are provisional. That is the time to lodge protests. After they are final is most likely too late.

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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[OTLimit]

Something like this happened to us one year at the ARRC. The weather was hit and miss; we started on something resembling rains, most everyone else started on race tires. When it started raining a very short time later, they brought in the whole field. (and no, we weren't happy about it) Later, due to the weather, they ended up giving Chris the checkered flag as he came through the pit lane, and he was in the lead at the time. There wasn't even a question about it and it was handled appropriately. Unless the supps specifically state that you will be penalized for not taking your pit stop if the race ends early, I'm not sure they could get away with it.

Sounds like you should have protested.

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Lesley Albin
Over The Limit Racing
Blazen Golden Retrievers

[apr67]

I got screwed in the same race. I am not a front runner but getting peanalized sucks none the less.

I questioned this, and the answer I got is:

#1. GCR says a race is offical after half distance/time.

#2. ECR rules require a 5 minute pit stop on any race upto 2 hrs in length.

So, we are screwed.

Or maybe not. The ECR rules also state that the shortest ECR race will be 1.5 hours. So, since the race was less than 1.5 hours, it must not have been an ECR race.

What do you think? Winable?

[racer_tim]

These enduro's aren't covered in the GCR but in the supps for the event. Out here in the San Francisco Region, we have a 4 hour event, and we have 2 mandatory 5 minute stops.

Here are some rules from the 2003 event. I did a search on the document and can't find a penalty for not making the 2 ea stops. Something to look at for 2004. The only penalty is for fueling issues.

"A minimum of two drivers is required for each car. A maximum of four drivers is permitted."

"No driver may drive more than 2-1/2 hours during the race in one car"

"All cars must make at least two (2) five-minute pit stops during the race. Upon entering the pits for the timed stops, the driver will be given a time slip at the entry check point. A crew member may pick up a time slip from the entry check point for a car already in the pits. However, the time will begin when the crew member asks for the slip. Upon leaving the pits, the driver must turn in the time slip at the exit check point. The car must come to a complete stop at each check point. No time slips will be given to or accepted from a moving car."

"Unsafe handling or spillage of fuel may result in a 10-minute penalty. A second infraction may result in exclusion. Rags or other absorbent materials may not be used to prevent fuel spillage. Excessive spillage into catch pans is not permissible and any fuel in catch pans must be immediately returned to closed containers."



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Tim Linerud
San Francisco Region SCCA
#95 GP Wabbit (Bent)
http://linerud.myvnc.com/racing/index.html

[Knestis]

Sounds like an official request should be made that the event not count as a points-earning ECR enduro...

This is a great example of why I am so opposed to artificial constraints on stops - number, duration, or whatever - in club endurance races.

If the argument is that minimum stop times prevent unsafe behaviors among teams rushing to add fuel, solve the problem directly by penalizing them for those behaviors. The WHOLE POINT of endurance racing is for the team that best manages all of the variables to come out on top.

There is every chance that I could do a 1.5 hour ECR without a stop in the Golf, albeit at slower lap times than other entrants. Shouldn't we be allowed to compare the two strategies?

K

[JohnRW]

Writing enduro supps is a 'black art', like alchemy (turning lead into gold, etc.). I think this because I spent a lot of time writing enduro rules and supps in the past 5-6 years.

Race organizers need to think of every eventuality not covered by the GCR, then come up with a solution and turn that solution into a paragraph in the Supps. Not as easy as it sounds, kids.

Like Kirk, I don't like enduros with 'mandatory' stops. Pointless nonsense, IMO...but I don't get to decide that for other Regions, and not the point of this thread. Besides, I have a VW that I occasionally drag out for enduros that goes nearly 2:30 on fuel, so who the hell wants to stop ?!??!!

How do you make the situation that Team NRG encountered fair to all ? Easy. If you are going to have a mandatory stop, and there is a possibility that the race could be shortened, add one (or more) of several things to the Supps:

1. Cars that have not completed their required stop by the checkered flag will incur either a 'time' or 'lap penalty', equivalent to slightly more than the length of time for the stop. So...if it's a required '3 minute' stop, add 3:15, or two laps, or whatever, to their finishing time and adjust the finishing order accordingly. This solution keeps people from 'blowing off' their required stop, as the penalty is somewhat greater, timewise, than the time they saved by not stopping. It accomplishes what the organizers wanted, and offers an 'out' for the 'early checker' problem (not a great 'out'...but an 'out').

or

2. Require that cars make their required stop within a 'mandatory window' that fits inside the minimum conceiveable race length (2 hour enduro ? Require it within the first 70 minutes). Of course, some bonehead will then crash at the 60 minute mark and cause a black flag, then it'll snow and there will be a tornado and a meteor will strike T&S, and all those guys who've been waiting for the 65 minute mark will be screwed.

How you monitor that all cars have made their required stop is an entirely different issue, but there a number of solutions to that, too.

Nick - at this point, there is nothing you can do, unless you've already protested the results based on Supps language that we're not aware of. What you can do, proactively, is write to the sponsoring Region's Comp. Board and point out the problem, then offer solutions that can be included in the Supps for their next race.

Someday, I'm going to sit down and write my great opus: "John's Guide to Writing Enduro Supps". It won't be a strict guide, but rather one that says "if you want to do THIS, then you have to think of THESE eventualities and have a solution for THESE issues". Anybody want an autographed first edition ?

[This message has been edited by JohnRW (edited June 10, 2004).]

[Tom Donnelly]

One thing about the 5 minute rule is that it is much easier on the driver if he is also his only crew member.

And the idea of some of my friends rushing to refuel and/or change tires without some kind of nascar type pit rules and training seems too much like the 3 stooges. Hey Moe, woowoowoowoo - boom!!

The strategies and pit struggles would be alot of fun though.

Tom

[Knestis]

I know that this isn't really the topic but the guy who has only himself as crew SHOULD get beaten by the team that is fully staffed and equipped.

K

[Bill Miller]

How does a guy w/ no crew run an enduro that has a mandatory pit stop? Unless he doesn't take on any fuel. Every enduro I've ever run or been involved with, requires someone manning a fire bottle during refueling. I know that you can 'share' a fire person w/ either the other team you're sharing your pit with, or someone from an adjacent pit. Not something I'd want to count on though.

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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[apr67]

Easy. Don't add fuel.

Alan

[Knestis]

I saw a guy do exactly what Bill describes - held his fire bottle, actually - at a Lowe's ECR last year.

I personally did a "no-fuel" stop during the 45-min. CCPS "enduro" at VIR earlier this season. Just sat there looking at my watch for the required time.

Neither of these activities had anything to do with endurance racing. Come to VIR in October for 13 hours, y'all.

Heh, heh, heh...

K