Which Tire Manufacturer Cares About You?

[JohnRW]

Originally posted by Catch22:

OK. Whatever.

Exactly our thoughts on your contributions here.

See ? We all come away from this discussion in agreement.

[Fleetcare]

Originally posted by Catch22:
So one guy in an SSB car (who happens to be sponsored by Kumho) equals DOMINATION?

OK. Whatever.

Weak arguement.. And very juvenile at that.

So he is sponsored.. What does that mean? It means he is just that good and he is backed by a factory with the equipment to go fast. I believe he has tried Hoosiers and been slower than Kumhos.

But thats not the arguement.. I think That based on your title, your saying Hoosier cares more. Well cares is subjective. To the average Joe, its always different.

BMW and Porsche have CCA's. Kumho backs those very well. Thus they focus on 17'+ 18's. The make more money on them and those owners have no money problems so street tire sales could also increase. Thats why most people make racing products!

Hoosiers reputation is also very different. They have had the good with the bad.

ANd my final point.

Even if a tire isnt better than Hoosiers, doesnt mean the tire company doesnt respect its customers.And perhaps they have other things to focus on. Because not everyone is dedicated to making racing tires.

[Catch22]

But thats not the arguement.. I think That based on your title, your saying Hoosier cares more. Well cares is subjective. To the average Joe, its always different.

BMW and Porsche have CCA's. Kumho backs those very well. Thus they focus on 17'+ 18's. The make more money on them and those owners have no money problems so street tire sales could also increase. Thats why most people make racing products!

ANd my final point.

Even if a tire isnt better than Hoosiers, doesnt mean the tire company doesnt respect its customers.And perhaps they have other things to focus on. Because not everyone is dedicated to making racing tires.

Again, thanks for helping me make my point.

My title is "Which Tire Manufacturer Cares About You?" This is "ImprovedTouring.com" ya know, for Improved Touring racers.
Just to make this clear (which apparently I didn't... sorry), I said this in the first post... "...you get great insight into which tire manufacturer is more focused on the needs of the IT community."
"The IT community." Not BMW and PCA club racing, not drivers schools, not street tires. THE IT COMMUNITY!!!

You guys can disagree with me. Thats fine and I welcome it. Debate is fun, productive and healthy. But at least understand what you're arguing. I'm trying to make it as clear as I can but am apparently failing miserably. I added lots of stuff in Bold in this post hoping it might help.

And Jon, your "argument" was the weak one. In a thread about tires on Improved Touring cars, on ImprovedTouring.com, you contributed that one guy in an SSB car does very well at one track (he actually does well everywhere, but YOU threw in the one track reference <shrugs>.) on Kumhos. Well, OK. Thats pretty meaningless to this, or any tire discussion. One guy doing well on a tire in an SSB car at one track is some sort of data point for you? Excellent. I'll try to remember that when I need to sell some old parts.

[zracer22]

Originally posted by SamL:
Of course, if you want my REAL opinion on all this tire debate it's this: The modern DOT racing tire has ruined grassroots sedan racing. Ever since the loophole was found (at first by Goodyear, IIRC), the "cheater tires" have brought about the need for coil-over suspension, spherical bushings, racing shocks, and all the other crap that have caused IT cars to become almost as expensive as low-level Formula and GT cars.

You got that right!

[zracer22]

Originally posted by Catch22:
[B]It is nice to see Kumho jump up and attack this latest problem with such vigor and enthusiasm. Some might argue that they have a potential disaster on their hands [B]

I guess Kuhmo thought so too.

http://www.scca.org/news/press04_57.html

[This message has been edited by zracer22 (edited April 06, 2004).]

[Quickshoe]

Originally posted by Catch22:
As to the competitiveness of the V700... Its a cheaper tire, in the right sizes, and readily available, so how come not one single IT podium finisher at the '03 ARRC was riding on them? The best finisher I can think of off hand was 6th (a Miata) in ITA.
Hmmmmmm.

Because when you show up to a race like that with goals of winning you don't give up any advantage. No matter how small.

The prior comments about you can only win on Kumhos if...is opposite from my perspective. Which is you only need Hoosiers/Goodyears when you are a great racer, competition is fierce AND your competition is on them. Logic or lack thereof: If you are 1 second off the pace on Kumhos/Toyos then Hoosiers or Goodyears aren't going to make you an instant winner. If the competition isn't that fierce why waste the money on a highly consumable item that you don't need. Do you run with a fresh head and high dollar fuel at every race? If everyone in your class made a gentlemens' agreement to save a few bucks and run Kumhos or Toyos would you show up with Hoosiers just to beat them?

The fact that someone places 6th at the ARRC on Kumhos should be evidence enough that the tires are far from crap.

[Jake]

Originally posted by SamL:
Of course, if you want my REAL opinion on all this tire debate it's this: The modern DOT racing tire has ruined grassroots sedan racing...

Oooh...ooh...oooooh! I like this quote. I wouldn't quite say it "ruined" anything, but it certainly makes things a lot more expensive. How cool would it be if we all had to run Falken Azenis tires at $40/pop! I love how Hooiser says their "DOT" tires are not for highway use. And then they have the nerve to lobby the DOT not to improve their standards...

Catch - sorry we all ganged up on you. You do make good points about Hoosier supporting us more, which I agree with. However...

Originally posted by Catch22:
If the new Kumho comes out and is comparable to the Hoosier (doubtful) but cheaper (likely), I'll still be running Hoosiers. My Daddy taught me to dance with who brung ya.

That's just too bad for you. My daddy tought me to shop around for the best product at the best price.

[apr67]

If a tire company cared about me, they would make a tire that could be used as a rain tire and then as a dry tire when it was worn.

If a tire company cared about me they would realize that a product that only lasted a weekend was not what I want.

If a tire company cared about me, they would not have tires that flat spot on the drop of a hat.

All of the tire companies care about profit. Period. It is the way capitalism works. Brand H tire company wants to make money. They have a vested interest in selling a product that is very close to 'crack cocaine'. It makes you fast, costs alot and doesn't last long. Sounds to me like a perfect recipe for profitability.

Profits are good. It may be that Hoosier is the only tire company with a sustainable business model for the club racing marketspace. But we have many tires to choose from, Goodyear, Yokohama, Toyo, Michilen, Hoosier, Hankook, and Kumho. Some will come, some will go. BFG used to be big. Bridgestone used to be involved. Maybe MG Peus or some other South American tire company will step up. Maybe Cheng Shin will make racing tires.

BTW, their is not a single racing tire comnpany that has not had supply or quality problems. Most race tires are hand made, and they can have growing pains. Burn down a factory and supply problems you have.

[Catch22]

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">Catch - sorry we all ganged up on you. You do make good points about Hoosier supporting us more, which I agree with.</font>

I don't look at it as ganging up. As I mentioned before, debate is good. I just like the folks debating me to be debating the same point as I. Hopefully thats straight now and we'll have no more mention of global profits, BMW CCA, etc.
If I'm the only person with my opinion, I'm certainly OK with that. Hell, try to change my opinion... Go for it. Thats one of the many reasons this board is here.

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">That's just too bad for you. My daddy tought me to shop around for the best product at the best price.</font>

Yes, but that also includes service, performance, and reliability. Right now (IMO again) Hoosier has that over the other manufacturers. You spend more money on the Hoosier, but you get more (again, IMO) in return. Which is pretty much how things typically work in all of life.

As far as Hoosiers "lasting one weekend." Well, you're just plain doing something wrong. I, and many others, get alot more than that out of them.
And Hoosier listened to your needs and tried to engineer the "heat cycle" problem out of the new tire. Those results are still TBD because I don't really know anyone thats worn out a set yet.

And I'll say that I probably shouldn't have gone as far as calling the V700 "crap." But you have to understand that in my racing world they ARE crap because they are useless to me. I've raced head to head against them and dominated them, friends that have used them hated them, and in my class and division (ITC in the SE) I get to race against at least one former ARRC winner at pretty much every event (and they're on Hoosiers of course). I can't beat them on Kumho V700s, no way. "Hotshoe's" arguments above are valid in some situations (save money on weak competition weekends) but I don't seem to ever get a "weak competition" weekend. I always run the best tires I can afford to have on the car (which typically means Hoosiers up to 10 or 12 heat cycles, which I still think are better than V700s) and I always buy the expensive gas. I race to be competitive, thats how I have fun, and thats what it takes for me to hang with the Will Perrys, Vesa Silegrens, and Stephen Douglasses of the world (and they all do the same thing). I don't look at it as a burden, I feel blessed to have such strong competition 9 out of 10 times I unload the car. I LOVE it!!! Its why I race.

If you felt the same about racing as I, had constant stiff competition (on Hoosiers), and unloaded every weekend with a win as your goal, you'd very highly likely choose the Hoosier over the V700 as I have. You'd have to.

JMO. You're welcome to try to change it.

PS - I agree with the "DOT Tire" point above. I'd love to be racing on Falkens or Kumho MXs (would Hoosier even be in the DOT market if this were the case? I dunno.) at less than $50 each.

[This message has been edited by Catch22 (edited April 07, 2004).]

[Fleetcare]

AS far as ruining racing.. thats a tough call!

Honestly unless you have a spec tire with the promise of price control your going to have someone being upset!

Somethings always better for a bit more $$.

But on the flip side.. The US is very lucky to have 2 tire companies making racing tires.

South Africa only has dunlops and they are $320 a tire! try planning a season based on that as your expenses! Its also a true slick ( not DOT there.. and no street tires bc of countless fatalities from retreads) but still.. Your getting 3-4 race weekends for a $1280... Thats probably double if not more anything you can get in teh US.. So the little competition or threat of it.. Is brilliant for the racers!

If none of this make sense, someone slap me

[lateapex911]

Wouldn't it be cool, if (in a perfect world)the SCCA could mandate, (through durometer specs or something) the relative longevity of the tire?

I too would give a second or two in lap time to leave the silly tire buying habit in my past. Waste of time, money, materials and landfill space if you ask me.

Of course, if the SCCA did, no tire manufacturer would care at all....they want to sell volume...

Sigh.....

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[Catch22]

Of course, if the SCCA did, no tire manufacturer would care at all....they want to sell volume...

Sigh.....

[/B]

I don't think so. Hoosier DID just make a special tire to try to get into one class (Spec Miata), so I'm guessing if SCCA mandated a durometer reading that Hoosier would comply with a compound change. SCCA is, after all, the vast majority of their DOT tire business. Of course, there is always the chance they'd just say "screw it" and focus on their other products.

The problem with this is that it might knock several contenders out of the running, and as Jon mentioned above, competition is good for us consumers.
Hoosier already has a small margin on their DOT tires, this is why everybody (Appalachian, Tire Rack, Phils, Mid Atlantic...) sells them for almost the exact same price. There just isn't any room to adjust. Any higher and they don't sell them, any lower and they lose money.
Why? Volume. Hoosier doesn't have it, the other companies do. This is also the reason why Hoosier can't offer huge contingency money, they can't afford to do so.

So imagine if a new "durometer rule" left Hoosier as the only player in the market making legal tires for IT???
Would they raise their prices significantly? You bet your ass they would. And anybody else would do the same.

[oanglade]

Hoosier took their new tire on size 205-50-15 and added the letters "SM" to the sidewall.

I wouldn't call that "making a special tire for one class".

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Ony Anglade
ITA Miata
Sugar Hill, GA

[Catch22]

Incorrect.
The SM tire is a different compound than the other s04 tires.
Feedback from most top SM racers that have tried it is "Slighty faster than the Toyo."

The other S04 tires are ALOT faster than the Toyo. They are also ALOT faster than the S03.

[oanglade]

The Hoosier "SM" is not only the same compound as the RS304, it IS an RS304, according to Hoosier employees, not me. The only difference, other than the "SM" on the sidewall, is a reduced price.

All the "top SM racers" that I have heard from agree that the tire is significantly faster than the Toyo. As in over a second a lap faster at most tracks.


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Ony Anglade
ITA Miata
Sugar Hill, GA

[Catch22]

Well then we've both been told different things by Hoosier employees and representatives <shrugs>.

So you're saying there is NO difference between the 205/50/15 S04 and the SM S04 except the marking on the sidewall?
So Hoosier spent money on a different mold just to put an "SM" on there?
Why would they do that?
Honestly. I'm asking because it doesn't make sense to me.

I'm thinking its far more likely that the SM tire is like the Grand Am tire. Looks exactly the same as the regular tire but a harder compound.
Now THAT would make sense.

[oanglade]

I don't know the reason behind it.

They even have the same catalog number as the 205-50-15 S04 (#46500)with the addition of the letters "SM" to the number (#46500SM).

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Ony Anglade
ITA Miata
Sugar Hill, GA

[BUMPnGO]

1

[BUMPnGO]

Everlasting rears....sounds like some of your old girlfriends but really it's the way tires are used up on a crx si. I usually classify my tire inventory into MAYPOP I's and MAYPOP II's. Personally, I just like the feel of the Hoosier's and feel they are more predictable, although I think the Toyo's have the strongest core to race on for us budget guys.(HA) Neither one help much when the $30,000 Beemers pass me on the staightaway

[This message has been edited by BUMPnGO (edited April 07, 2004).]

[Quickshoe]

Originally posted by Catch22:
If you felt the same about racing as I, had constant stiff competition (on Hoosiers), and unloaded every weekend with a win as your goal, you'd very highly likely choose the Hoosier over the V700 as I have. You'd have to.

I would show up on Hoosiers (unless everyone else was on Goodyears )

In a lot of ways we probably do feel the same way about racing. I don't show up for second place. I have been to 3 races in my life (out of about 150) that I didn't know I could win when I unloaded. My first race, the biggest race and the most recent.

I'm at a point now that I don't need to win at any cost to my time and household budget. I am now going to have fun. Winning is fun, but you can't do it every time. Heck if you go home accomplishing your goal 1/3 of the time you are doing pretty good. When you don't win and you are no longer having fun, you need to redefine why it is you do this. I decided to buy a car where the fields (out here) are huge, and I'll always have people to race with. As soon as I get a little further up the grid, I'll be having fun again

But back on topic--I raced in a series where Hoosier was the spec tire. The prices were great and the purses where decent. They wouldn't have been without a major corporations' support. So I appreciate Hoosier. Back before I knew any better and watched NASCRAP I pulled for Hoosier in the tire wars.

I just don't believe a $600- set of one race weekend tires have any place in IT racing. I know you get more than 1 weekend out of your tires...but what would you do when your stiff competition showed up on new rubber for every race? You only use the Hoosiers because you need to, to be competitive. You'd also have to (with the same goals) if everyone else showed up on new rubber every time too. Maybe it is only a couple of tenths from 1st lap to 3rd heat cycle. But, you are spotting the new tired guy a couple of seconds in the race before the flag even drops. Where do you draw the line?