Which Tire Manufacturer Cares About You?

[oanglade]

I run Kumhos and Toyos. Never had a problem finding them. Never had a problem with them with delamination, etc., but I have found Hoosiers too expensive.

My point is that, even though I believe that some people have had problems finding Toyos at some point and that some people have had problems with Kumhos at some point, MOST people have experienced neither, while MOST people have also experienced that the Hoosiers are more expensive and wear faster.


The Kumho V700 might not be as fast as a Hoosier, but it definitely is a great tire for the money. Same goes for the Toyo. Neither of them I would call "crap".


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Ony Anglade
ITA Miata
Sugar Hill, GA

[JohnRW]

Originally posted by Catch22:
I guess most of you guys missed my original point...&...It just doesn't make sense to me....

You confuse "listening" with "agreeing". We all heard your point. We don't necessarily agree with you. As you said, you are entitled to your own opinion. You know the old saying about opinions...

We're all adults here. We all have good reasons for choosing what we want to race on. We're able to choose our tires without help from a Tire Nanny.

[Catch22]

I am in no way anti Kumho. The problem is that I am a competitive racer and I can't be competitive on Kumhos. I can't even try Toyos because they don't bother to make my size.

As a matter of fact I volunteered to do some testing for Kumho late last year but never got a call.
I WANT these tires to work and be faster than the Hoosier. I race in ITC and do that on a tight budget, currently running Hoosiers that were bought last spring (successfully I might add). I'd love to be able to save money and run Kumhos, but they (V700s) are NOT competitive (all other things equal) with Hoosiers and frankly Kumhos quality control (lack of?) scares me.
So I'll keep spending the extra $$$ to stay up front and feel safe, at least until Kumho can make a competitive tire with no QC issues.

If you check Tirerack.com right now you'll see that the V710 has disappeared. It has been recalled and Kumho is offering to replace all of them with V700s AND another set of V710s later (ya know, when the bugs are worked out). Sounds like a great deal, and it is from the purely financial perspective of a racer. But what it REALLY is is an attempt to avoid a public relations disaster by Kumho, because once again they sent a questionable product to market.

That bothers me. If it doesn't bother you... Fine with me. Its your ass, not mine.

Scott, who honestly, really, truly would love it if the Kumho was a great tire, but its not.

[Catch22]

We're able to choose our tires without help from a Tire Nanny.

The guys that had tires literally explode (complete delamination to the cords) at CMP this weekend might be wanting a tire nanny right about now.
I could be wrong though.

Scott, who will point out that my original post was Friday, Before all of the 710 failures this weekend and before the recall.

[Banzai240]

http://www.kumhousa.com/V710.asp

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/kumho/kumho_710.html

http://corner-carvers.com/forums/showthrea...&threadid=15824

http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=822611

http://www.sccaforums.com/cgi-bin/ultimate...14;t=000151;p=0

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Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX

[JohnRW]

Originally posted by Catch22:

I could be wrong though.

I hear the sound of an axe, grinding. On how many different boards are you going to share your outrage ? You seem to be a prolific poster on this subject, across a wide swath of the iNtaRWEb.

[Catch22]

No axe.
Just calling what I see, and enjoying finally getting a response that rates up there with some of Kirk's threads.
Why is it that when someone points out something negative about a product, region, or series many people assume there is some sort of motive? Can't one have an opinion without an evil motive?
And remember, my original post here was BEFORE the 710 problems arose this weekend and this was the only place I made such a post. The 710 problem threads on Honda-Tech.com WERE NOT STARTED BY ME.

Axe... Nope. Not at all.
Just making observations that were then heavily backed up by occurances this weekend. Just lucky I guess.

Scott, who may run Kumhos in a couple of years after someone else proves that they are fast and won't explode.

[ITSRX7]

Catch22 quotes:

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">If the new Kumho comes out and is comparable to the Hoosier (doubtful) but cheaper (likely), I'll still be running Hoosiers. My Daddy taught me to dance with who brung ya.</font>

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">Scott, who may run Kumhos in a couple of years after someone else proves that they are fast and won't explode.</font>

So you WILl give them a chance or you WON'T ???

You point was valid, but the way you presented it was very pro-Hoosier and anti-Kumho.

AB

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Andy Bettencourt
06 ITS RX-7
FlatOut Motorsports
New England Region
www.flatout-motorsports.com

[Jake]

LOL - I love how the fact that the V710's blow up was the point, when the statement was made before this happend. Someone has has ESP. (just kidding) I think everybody made their point.

Wow - what a freaken embarassement for Kumho. It seems like South Korea has WMD's now too. I'm glad their doing the right thing.

[Hotshoe]

Mike Cox:
Bring your Kumhos to Roebling Road in a few weeks. I'd like to see what they can do against a set of Hoosiers.

I can get five races out of a set of Hoosiers with only a .8 drop in lap times throughout the life of the tire.

I have never tried any Kumhos but I sure have passed a lot of them.

And to answer the question that was asked: Appalachian Tire gives the best service that I have seen in the SEDIV. And the Hoosier Tires they sell (even though they may cost a little more) are the most available and competitive tires I can find.

[Joe Craven]

Hotshoe, when you say 5 races, does that include practice and qualify or only the races which would be 5 heat cycles? I have 6 heat cycles on my Hoosiers and they are barely worn other than a slight flat spot - :-()

[Mike Cox]

Rick,

Me, Carlos and Steve will be back to see you with our Kumhos and smiles on our faces.

Hope you doing ok, I heard it was a bad shunt and you're ok.

See you soon


Mike

[Hotshoe]

Mike:
Thanks for the concern. It took almost 150 hrs to get my car back in shape but she's 100% 2 for 2 at VIR right out of the box.

Joe:
I run qualifying and races on my tires but very few practice laps.

Looking forward to a rematch with Carlos....ha..ha

See you all there

[Catch22]

Sorry, good points.

My original intent was to be pro Hoosier and not anti anything. But I came across as anti Kumho in giving reasons why I'm pro Hoosier.
Then the new Kumho was a complete disaster this past weekend and I felt it even further demonstrated my point. The timing was just uncanny in terms of this thread.

And to answer Andy's question, I've been saying for 5 years now that I will run Kumhos if/when Kumho gives me a reason to do so. I'm still on Hoosiers and this past weekend did nothing but solidify that position.
I'm on a budget and want to save money like anyone else, so saving over $100 per set of tires is something that certainly grabs my interest. But I'm NOT going to sacrifice the competitiveness, service, and reliabilty of the Hoosier over what Kumho currently has on the market. And at this point I'm not sure I ever will. Thats 3 Quality Control strikes against Kumho in about 5 years, thats pretty serious in my mind.

As to the competitiveness of the V700... Its a cheaper tire, in the right sizes, and readily available, so how come not one single IT podium finisher at the '03 ARRC was riding on them? The best finisher I can think of off hand was 6th (a Miata) in ITA.
Hmmmmmm...

As to S03 Hoosiers falling off... They do.
But if you heat cycle them and manage them properly you can get at least 10 competitive sessions out of them (I use mine for 12).
The key is to keep 2 sets of wheels (and wheels are cheap, often cheaper than a set of tires) so you can get new tires heat cycled and not waste new tire cycles on practice sessions.
Oh, and 10 to 12ish heat cycled Hoosiers are GREAT for enduros (assuming they start with enough tread on them). They perform almost exactly like a Toyo. They are a tad slower (.8 to 1 second) than a fresh tire but never fall off at all.

[Fleetcare]

Im not too sure but I think that Kumho DOMINATES @ Roebling Road.
I know in SSB Phil Cryole Destroys the hoosier tires with his cars!

I think as far as this is concerned catch22 is being VERY hard on kumho and hasnt tried to product..Hoosier hasnt always been flawless and I know @ Moroso I had TONS of trackside support from Kumho.. hoosier didnt even have a truck out there besides appalation(sp?) tires

As the saying goes. Dont knock it till you try it!

[lateapex911]

Well, interestingly enough check out the "recall" thread....

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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[gran racing]

NOW THIS IS PRETTY FUNNY!

I just called Hoosier, and the new R3S04 is not currently available in 13" size. How in the world can I help but laugh? Right now they are in the testing phase and Hoosier anticipates that it will be available in the not too distant future.

Guess neither manufacture cares about us Of course I am not being serious here but it certainly is ironic!

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Dave Gran
NER #13 ITA
'87 Honda Prelude

[SamL]

As to Hoosier having the best availability in terms of supply and sizes and the best tire (at least in terms of outright speed) there is certainly no argument.

The idea that this is because Hoosier "cares" while the others don't is a little questionable.

For Hoosier a major part of their business is DOT race tires. They have a vested interest in keeping the IT community happy because it helps the bottom line.

Toyo, Kumho, Hankook, etc. have to make and sell tires to a much larger market than a couple of thousand IT & Showroom Stock racers. They are in cut-throat competition against giants like Goodyear and Michelin and have to focus on competing on that level. They don't make certain tire sizes because these companies are making tires for Planet Earth and not Planet SCCA.

It's actually quite surprising that they take the time to make any tires at all for a market that for them is barely profitable. On top of that, these same "uncaring" companies also have, on average, superior contingency programs in a variety of racing series.


As far as one tire being "crap" versus another being "dominant" it has to do with the series and what kind of car you are running.

Toyos are great for endurance racing (real endurance racing, not a double-length sprint race with a mandatory pit stop ). They can last practically forever and stand up well to abuse.

Kumhos actually do seem to be the tire of choice with softer-sprung cars. I've noticed that in the SS-type classes they seem to be on par with the Hoosiers.

Hoosier is definitely the best-performing tire out there, but it comes at a price. Even with a perfectly set-up car, they have the shortest lifespan. A badly set-up car can kill Hoosiers frighteningly fast. As has been noted elsewhere, they are finicky about break-in.


Of course, if you want my REAL opinion on all this tire debate it's this: The modern DOT racing tire has ruined grassroots sedan racing. Ever since the loophole was found (at first by Goodyear, IIRC), the "cheater tires" have brought about the need for coil-over suspension, spherical bushings, racing shocks, and all the other crap that have caused IT cars to become almost as expensive as low-level Formula and GT cars.

[Catch22]

I never said the 04 Hoosier was available in the 13" sizes yet. What I said was that they got arguably the two most popular IT sizes (225/50/14 and 225/45/15 along with the SM tire) out to market FIRST. Not 17s or 18s as Kumho did. So don't laugh at an argument I never made.
As mentioned, the Hoosier 13s will be out soon, far sooner on the size release curve than Kumho will be with the V710 (one rumour is that they'll do nothing smaller than 15" at all. Its from someone who would know, but still a rumour nevertheless. But we already know it would be AT LEAST another year, far longer than Hoosier).

And I never said WHY Hoosier would focus more on us than Kumho or Toyo, I just stated that (IMO) they do.
And you guys stating that Kumho and Toyo have bigger fish to fry and bigger markets than a bunch of IT racers just kind of proves my point doesnt it? Hoosier fries their fish right in our kitchen and I'm pretty happy about that.

It is nice to see Kumho jump up and attack this latest problem with such vigor and enthusiasm. Some might argue that they have a potential disaster on their hands and dont have a choice (which is kind of true), but companies still often miss that boat and cut their own throats.
Kumho giving out free tires and covering mounting/balancing/shaving costs is about the best thing they could do and its what they are doing. They certainly get two thumbs up for that.

[Catch22]

Originally posted by Fleetcare:
Im not too sure but I think that Kumho DOMINATES @ Roebling Road.
I know in SSB Phil Cryole Destroys the hoosier tires with his cars!

So one guy in an SSB car (who happens to be sponsored by Kumho) equals DOMINATION?

OK. Whatever.