Which Tire Manufacturer Cares About You?

[Catch22]

Word has come out (from a kumho dealer) that the only size under 17" that Kumho will release in the new 710 tire this year is 205/50/15.

Compare this to the first sizes of the new Hoosier (including 225/50/14, 205/50/15 and 225/45/15) and you get great insight into which tire manufacturer is more focused on the needs of the IT community.

Then there is of course Toyo, who keeps managing to sign Spec Tire deals but run out of tires by the summer of every year.

I don't work for Hoosier nor am I sponsored by them. I just think that they deserve appreciation that we, the IT community, rarely manage to give them. Other tires may be cheaper, or last longer. But Hoosier is the only company that ALWAYS provides competitive tires, in the right sizes, without availability issues. Not to mention track side support at most events.

If the new Kumho comes out and is comparable to the Hoosier (doubtful) but cheaper (likely), I'll still be running Hoosiers. My Daddy taught me to dance with who brung ya.

[Banzai240]

Originally posted by Catch22:
Word has come out (from a kumho dealer) that the only size under 17" that Kumho will release in the new 710 tire this year is 205/50/15.

Compare this to the first sizes of the new Hoosier (including 225/50/14, 205/50/15 and 225/45/15) and you get great insight into which tire manufacturer is more focused on the needs of the IT community.

Kuhmo is just following the market... How long do you think that 13 and 14" tires are going to be around?? They're OLD technology, and eventually, the SCCA (we) is (are) going to have to embrace that, because the manufactures aren't going to be able to afford to make these tires for the few of us that need to run them...

They'll be around for awhile, but eventually, the greater market is going to drive the direction the manufacturers will go....

Also... what wins on Sunday... and all that... They aren't marketing 14" performance tires these days...


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Darin E. Jordan
SCCA #273080, OR/NW Regions
Renton, WA
ITS '97 240SX


[This message has been edited by Banzai240 (edited April 03, 2004).]

[Catch22]

Well Darin, thanks for helping me make my point.

Even with the market going towards 17s and 18s Hoosier still pops out some 14s and 15s FIRST. The only possible reason is because you and I (IT racers) need them.
Nobody else does this. Toyo doesn't even MAKE a 225/45/13 or 225/45/15 (two extremely popular IT sizes).

22, thats why I am willing to pay 750 a set for hoosiers, they still make 13" 225's for a handful of us to race on, Hoosier'daddy

[planet6racing]

Did you ever get the feeling this was about to turn into something like the whole Spec Miata thing last year?

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Bill
Planet 6 Racing
bill (at) planet6racing (dot) com

[Jake]

[sarcasm]Yeah, those Kumho SOB's with their 235/45-13 Ecsta V700 that costs much less than Hoosier and lasts 3 times as long. Let's boycott 'em. And now they have the nerve to offer 3 flavors of DOT R-compounds![/sarcasm]

[This message has been edited by Jake (edited April 03, 2004).]

[gran racing]

I can see both points here. I love the fact that I can get inexpensive 13" Kumo Escta tires. I also understand that the tire was just manufactured and they have to take into consideration the supply and demand theories. Develop the tires that will be bought most first, then work down. If they can manufacture the bigger tires now, should they wait another year to release these just because they don't yet have the smaller sizes avail.? That would absolutely make no business sense - ESPECIALLY with Hoosier releasing their new tire. For people like myself, I need a tire that doesn't heat cycle out and has a longer life (like the Kumo Escta, the new V710, and yes the new Hoosier). So the release of the new Hoosier tire is pretty huge to the market. Kumo had to do something and release a tire that would be competitive.

There are so many things going on with these types of decisions, it is often misleading to an outsider why the decision is being made. I can think of several different circumstances that could cause this to happen. It is just easier to say that Kumo doesn't care. And you might be just a tad biased to Hoosier. But to say that Kumo doesn't care?

Also keep in mind that this is coming from another person that uses 13" tires. Yeah, I was a little disappointed about Kumo not producing the new V710 in my size right away.

And I am very glad Hoosier makes the new 13" tire. I very well may buy the new Hoosiers. I also think that Hoosier is a very good company.

Oh, did I mention to say that the non-caring IT hating tire manufacturer will have the V710s by next year? I e-mailed Kumo and a very non-caring employee provided me with some information on the transition and when they will be avail. the day after I e-mailed them.

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Dave Gran
NER #13 ITA
'87 Honda Prelude

[Knestis]

I don't know that there are two sides to an issue here - more like two marketing strategies.

Hoosier only makes racing tires. The other guys arguably use racing to increase brand awareness. Compare the front page of each manufacturer's web site for some perspective.

Hoosier doesn't CARE what sells on Monday - unless they are being ordered for the coming weekend. They do a great job because racers are their market.

K

[Catch22]

***Yeah, those Kumho SOB's with their 235/45-13 Ecsta V700 that costs much less than Hoosier and lasts 3 times as long.***

Well sure. But its a crap tire.
If you are running these tires and winning in IT you are either...
1. A super hot shoe
2. Have no competition
or
3. Everyone in your region runs them

Hardly anybody in the SE runs the Kumho V700 because they aren't competitive. 90% of the top cars down here run Hoosiers, the other 10% are on Toyos. Everyone I know that has tried the Kumhos has said the same thing... "Crap."
I think one top ITB team runs Kumhos successfully, but I've also been told that they are backed by Kumho and have new tires at every event (admittedly 2nd hand info that might not be true, but they do have some big-assed Kumho decals on the car).

So lets see, its the right size, its cheaper, but nobody is using it...
Hmmmmmm... Go figure.

You get what you pay for.

[Mike Cox]

In response to your claim of SE Div drivers not using Kumho tires. In Central Florida Region, 9 of the last 10 IT7 regional races have been won by cars using Kumho tires. These cars are not sponsored by Kumho, however it does make economic sense to use these tires for this fact. Kumho pays $150.00 (Credit) per win with 5 or more cars in class. 2nd receives $75.00 and 3rd receives $50.00.

What other tire company supports the tire user in this fashion?

In as far as the tires go, they are very high quality tires, they have very high grip form the beginning of a race to the end of a race and can be "leaned on" hard and respond very well.

I have found the Reps at Kumho to be very racer friendly. Equally, I have found the outlet (Tire Rack) also to be very responsive to shipping new tires and crediting my CC with the "Kumho Bucks" in a timely manner.

Racing is expensive, We all knew that when we started. Anyway to run competively, and reduce cost is a plus to regional racing and this avenue, I have found, has been a a cost savings of enormous proportions to my budget.

(plus my wife does gripe about me getting new tires all the time)

Mike Cox
#37 IT7
Central Florida Region

[This message has been edited by Mike Cox (edited April 05, 2004).]

[Jake]

The point is that people should buy whatever tire is better for them (which is probably the Hoosier). If we are going to buy tires based on the intentions of the company, we might as well stop racing foreign cars, and only use ones that are built in the USA.

BTW, we may be lucky that the V710 isn't available in 13+14" sizes, there have been cases of them falling apart on the track - and there's a rumor that they may have already been banned from NASA and SCCA club racing.

[Catch22]

3 Honda Challenge teams showed up at CMP this past weekend with brand new 205/50/15 V710s. All three teams had at least one tire delaminate before the end of the weekend. One tire fell apart in 10 total laps.

Ambient temperature was about 80 degrees and the track is less than 5 years old and is not at all abrasive.

And sorry, I wasn't aware of the IT7 usage of Kumhos down in Florida. But one of my points was that if most everyone in a class is using them... well, it doesn't matter if they suck because they suck for everybody.
I was going to try V700s 2 years ago, but everyone I knew that tried them immediately went back to Hoosiers. So I figured I'd save myself the effort.
I'm glad I did. In 2002 I raced head to head in 10 races against a car nearly identical to mine that was very well driven. He ran V700s, I ran Hoosiers. I won 6 races, he won once.
Why? His tires went away in every race. EVERY race. 4 times he was leading me at the 1/2 way mark but all I had to do was pressure him and the fronts would go away completely. Even when he was on brand new Kumhos and I was on older Hoosiers.

Cheaper? Sure. But that guy bought 10 Kumhos to get through 10 races that year and I bought 8 Hoosiers. Now how much cheaper were the Kumhos in that case?

Scientific data? Nah. Not at all.
But I've seen enough over the past couple of years (and this past weekend) to convince me that I'm making the right choice with Hoosier. You can run Kumhos if you want. Doesn't bother me one little bit. I wish everyone in my class used them.

[planet6racing]

Catch:

What's your point? You don't like Kumhos. That's your opinion. Great. Why beat it to death?

There are plenty of us that do like Kumhos on this board and can't wait for them to develop a tire to compete with the Hoosiers. Until then, I'll stay within my budget and race as best I can.

On Edit: Oh, and please stop spreading FUD. Unless you have e-mails from said dealer or from Kumho directly, let's not play the Spec Miata He-said-she-said game again.

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Bill
Planet 6 Racing
bill (at) planet6racing (dot) com

[This message has been edited by planet6racing (edited April 05, 2004).]

[That Renault Guy]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the new Hoosier available in limited sizes only (read 15"+) for last year's runoffs?

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Jim Krom
ITC Renault Encore EFSC (Exotic French Sports Car)

[Mike Cox]

and my point is that only 3 cars in IT7 out of 12 are using them and some guys do use Hoosiers and someguys do use Toyos, but the Kumho's are beating them on a consistent basis without any tire problems.

[gran racing]

It appears that Hoosier also doesn't care about us racers - they only released the 13" after the winter. (some sarcasm here?)

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Dave Gran
NER #13 ITA
'87 Honda Prelude

[Catch22]

I guess most of you guys missed my original point. The point was while Hoosier consistently provides the right sizes, total availability, no quality control problems (which Kumho has now suffered early with all 3 of their tire releases), and a very competitive product... The racing community mostly just complains about them being expensive.

Toyo runs out of tires 2 summers in a row... Kumho has QC problems every time they release a new tire... Neither company focuses on the *right* sizes for IT... And the most grumbling you ever hear is "Hoosiers are too expensive."

It just doesn't make sense to me.

One of the drivers at CMP this past weekend had one of his front V710s come completely apart in his race (a tire that had a total of 12 laps on it when the green flag dropped). Fortunately nobody got hurt, and it looks like Kumho is pulling the tires off the shelf and will make refunds for those tires.
But what if that tire had come apart at about 110mph in "the kink" at CMP? Somebody could have been seriously hurt (or worse).

Its time (and this is just my opinion of course) for the racing community to stop accepting crap like this just because a product is cheaper. Jesus guys, having your brand new tires completely delaminate in a race is a TERRIBLE thing. It happening to 3 teams on the same day is TOTALLY, COMPLETELY UNACCEPTABLE!!!
Again, Kumho is all apologetic and stuff, but who cares. How the hell did those tires get to market in the first place? Anybody can make a mistake, but Kumho has a history of them (remember the lots of bad tires at the Solo II nationals a couple of years back?) and this one is pretty bad.

If you don't like my opinion and you just love your Kumhos because they save you $30 per tire... Fine, whatever, your choice.
But this is a discussion board, and I'm just as entitled to my opinion as you are.

As far as unsubstantiated rumours... My size information is not. It comes from one of my sponsors (who deals Hoosier, Toyo, and Kumho) who was informed by Kumho that those sizes wouldn't be available until next year. If Kumho has changed that, well, then I think they probably need to communicate it to their dealers.
Then again, I guess they now have some bigger fish to fry given that some of their new tires have demonstrated a tendency to disintegrate.

[planet6racing]

Yet everyone lets Micro$oft get away with distributing bad software.

You know, I had typed a response, but I'm done. You are clearly against Kumho and nothing anyone says here is going to change that, so I'll just run my hand-me-down Kumhos and be happy. But, I will be at the front some day (the tires are not currently holding me back from being up front).

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Bill
Planet 6 Racing
bill (at) planet6racing (dot) com

[gran racing]

"As far as unsubstantiated rumours... My size information is not. It comes from one of my sponsors (who deals Hoosier, Toyo, and Kumho) who was informed by Kumho that those sizes wouldn't be available until next year. If Kumho has changed that, well, then I think they probably need to communicate it to their dealers."

This wasn't disputed. Only the reason why the tires were not being released in smaller sizes - that they didn't care. Oh well...


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Dave Gran
NER #13 ITA
'87 Honda Prelude

[Joe Craven]

My feeling is that Hoosier does the most to support us IT racers. However, I now run Goodyears since I race in ITB with 6" wide wheels and their tires work better on my car than Hoosiers.

BTW, I started with SCCA late in the 2002 season all excited about Kumho's contigency program. After winning my first race, I had a very bad experience dealing with Kumho. I wrote email to many people at Kumho, including various VPs of sales and of course their race director. The only person that returned my calls or emails was Rudy. That experience led me to believe that Kumho didn't care about my business so I took it elsewhere. I hear things have improved with the people in charge of the program, but I'm also in a Catch22 in my lack of interest in purchasing Kumho products.

Joe Craven
37 ITB 71 Capri
37 ITB VW GTI
tbd ITA 72 Capri V6