is it cheating??

[Team NRG]

There is alot of speculation that some of the fellow ITS competitors are now running the new Renesis RX-8 rotors in their 13B RX-7 engines. This would cause much greater compresion . Does anyone know more on this. Lets just say that some RX-7's are now 4-5 seconds per lap quicker than they were last year.

[planet6racing]

Please don't come here and start accusing people of cheating.

If you think they are, protest them. It's not that hard to do and should be an easy catch.

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Bill
Planet 6 Racing
bill (at) planet6racing (dot) com

Bill, and just how is he going to tell what rotors are in the motor without paying 1000 dollars to disassemble and reassemble that rotory, the mans coming here looking for advice on how to tell "IF" someone is cheating. I didnt catch your name team nrg but this question can be answered by, Dave lemon [email protected]

[planet6racing]

Well, you and I read that different.

I can't offer advice on how to tell if it is different by looking at the exterior. I don't know that you can. But, if they are and it is protested, the $1000 bond would be coming back.

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Bill
Planet 6 Racing
bill (at) planet6racing (dot) com

[Team NRG]

I am not pointing fingers at anyone. It just seems that since the production of the RX-8, which also carries the title of 13B, and the rotors fit the housings of a second gen RX-7, some ITS cars are significantly faster all of a sudden from one event to another. 5 seconds is serious extra horsepower. I also race in Grand-Am cup competitively and am a qualified driver. Because the RX-8 engine is a 13B and a second gen is a 13B, I am questioning the legality of this. Some of the speed may come from their ECU but certainly not 5 seconds. thanks

[Silkworm]

Well, clearly using the rotors is illegal, as the parts are not from a legal engine valid for an ITS RX-7.

If it's even possible to do, I don't know, and I don't know how you check.

I think you have to factor in the driver as well. Is he a middle of the pack guy who suddenly got 5 seconds? Or is he a consistent class leader who is now domininating? How prepped is the RX-7 in question? Could he have switched tires? Swapped in 5.12s and a torsen? Is he an utter rookie who is getting a clue now and turning faster times?

Have you asked the driver who he got 4-5 seconds a lap?

PaulC

[dyoungre]

Off the top of my head, if only the rotors are changed, the improvements could be from compression, changed timing due to rotor chamfer, and reduced inertia.

compression ratio can be checked (or at least compared) with a compression gauge.

Rotor chamfer can be checked through the exhaust port (with a mirror and flashlight). inertia? OK, you got me, but you could potentially look for a major increase in balance marks on the 'heavy' side of the flywheel. In any case, you should be able to protest and recommend inspection without teardown.


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Dave Youngren
NER ITA RX7 #61

[eprodrx7]

Yes it is possible and it is being done in EP but I do not know of anyone doing it in ITS. It is very expensive to do and requires either machining to the rotors or the use of ceramic apex seals and even that is somewhat untested. Pretty easy to check for them though, pull off the intake and stick your finger in the port and feel if there is a chamfer cut on the edge of the rotor. This was done to change timing. None of the ITS rotors have this chamfer stock. As for suspecting someone of cheating I would look for some porting instead. A lot easier and much more effective. I gained almost 3x the HP with porting then I anticipate getting with the new rotors. Just remember cheating is just altered interpretation until you get caught!

[dickita15]

Originally posted by Team NRG:
Because the RX-8 engine is a 13B and a second gen is a 13B, I am questioning the legality of this.

no it does not matter that they call the engine the same name. they could call them fruit salad. on parts that are not open you may only use parts that came in that car or from a car on the same spec line of the gcr and even then you must swap parts as an asembely. even if the rx8 was listed on the same spec line of the gcr you could not put rx8 rotors in a rx7 case legaly.
dick

[dickita15]

Originally posted by eprodrx7:
Just remember cheating is just altered interpretation until you get caught!
[/B]

come on john, that should have had a smiley face
dick

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by eprodrx7:
Just remember cheating is just altered interpretation until you get caught!

I think the gains in the new engine come from the whole package, and the rotors are part of that package. That package doesn't translate over to an ITS motor.

The major difference on the rotors is the chamfers, if I understand the differences correctly. I don't have dyno testing to back it up, but I was told the hp gain from chamfered rotors in an ITS engine is between 5 and 8 hp.

Think for a second about 4-5 seconds per lap. What does that represent if all other things are equal? A HUGE gain in Hp. And 5-8 hp is not NEARLY a huge gain of the magnitude necessary to run 4 seconds a lap quicker, even on long tracks.

Regarding the cheating item above. I hope John is suggesting that if you are sure that there is foul play then you should post a bond.

In amatuer racing, cheating is cheating whether it is discovered or not, and it is just plain scummy. Any wins or trophies gained are an embarassment to the winner. We run on a self policing policy, which is, unfortunatley, one step removed from an honor system.

In pro racing, cheating is expected, part of the program, and the sanctioning body is charged with the enforcement.

So, IMHO, the rotors are clearly illegal, but can't possibly account for the lap times you refer to.


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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[This message has been edited by lateapex911 (edited April 21, 2004).]

[eprodrx7]

oops!

[This message has been edited by eprodrx7 (edited April 21, 2004).]

[eprodrx7]

ok, well how about "I'm not cheating, I just read the rules diferently then you" Untill a third party gets involved (protest) it is still just two interpretations. There are two races going on, the one on the track and the one in the shop. It's all part of the game.

[lateapex911]

Putting a Renesis rotor in an ITS engine is NOT an interpretation unless you only speak and read Russian, nor is chamfering a stock rotor.

Black and white.

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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[zracer22]

here's an idea. all you rx7 guys go ahead and upgrade your rotors, and then in a year or two, the SCCA will write a new rule: "Rotary engines cars can replace the rotor provided that all modifications are done with in the original OEM rotor housing"

Sorry guys, I couldn't resist!

edited for content

[This message has been edited by 7'sRracing (edited April 22, 2004).]

[Team NRG]

OK. I have looked at the rule book some and from what I understand, you cannot use aftermarket parts in an engine. However, the RX-8 rotor IS a 13B production part. It is not aftermarket in anyway. It is produced by Mazda for their rotary engines. Any thoughts??

[jrx13]

Ok I am not 100% sure but I do not think the rotors are interchangeable. The Renesis/Rx-8 rotors have an extra "flank cut" on them for use with the new side exhaust ports. According to Mazda this delays exhaust closing timing by 15 deg. If they are interchangeable, I guess you could look at through the exhaust port and see the cut.

[lateapex911]

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\"> Originally posted by NRG: However, the RX-8 rotor IS a 13B production part. It is not aftermarket in anyway. It is produced by Mazda for their rotary engines. Any thoughts?? </font>

Yes,

Originally posted by dickita15:
no it does not matter that they call the engine the same name.... on parts that are not open you may only use parts that came in that car or from a car on the same spec line of the gcr and even then you must swap parts as an assembly. even if the rx8 was listed on the same spec line of the gcr you could not put rx8 rotors in a rx7 case legaly.
dick

Dicks 100% right on this one. If we ran Chevy 350s in IT, do you think we could grab any Chevy piston with 12:1 compression and slap it in our 9:1 motor, just cuz it's in a 350??

No way. This one's pretty clear. 13B is the engine family, but the engines are more like cousins than brothers...


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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[This message has been edited by lateapex911 (edited April 21, 2004).]

[iambhooper]

maybe i'm wrong, but the simple way to find out would be to stalk them to the fuel pump. if they are burning a premium octane fuel, then that might giveyou reason to be suspicious.

low compression uses lower octane, right? if not, then maybe all my wankle driving friends are doing something wrong?

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hoop
greensboro, nc
Blue Fiat x1/9
ITC #77
Region 55