Stay in A or move to B?

[Jake]

Ray, as you can tell we were writing at the same time so I didn't read your response before I wrote mine. I couldn't agree with you more.

[Speed Raycer]

Boy am I glad I didn't just drop a load on a set of new Panasports.

I can't really comment on the move to B other than I think that a very well prepped RX7 with a very good driver will be fairly dominant (which is bad) in B, even with 6" wheels and more weight.

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Scott
It's not what you build...
it's how you build it

[Bill Miller]

Originally posted by Jake:
The truth is that the vast majority of RX7's aren't anywhere near top ITB times. In the NE, most of them run with that pokey ITA MR2 and Prelude. At LRP 1:07-1:08 is typical for the RX7 field. On 13x6 wheels they would probably fit pretty well in ITB. If the PCA initiative allows them to add a couple of pounds to keep the ITB status quo happier - I think that would be even better.

Jake,

You should come to Summit Point for a MARRS race. Several of the Spec 7's are running in the 1:33's, which would put them in the top5 to top10 of the ITB field. The track record for a Spec 7 is a 1:32. And there are a couple of ITA RX7's that run low 1:31's. The ITB track record is a 1:30.499, set by Kaj Bush in a Suzuki Swift. I haven't seen anybody in ITB under 1:31 in the past 4 years. And there's an RX3 that runs 1:29s.

Ask anybody that runs the MARRS series, all the IT fields are very competitive, and usually very well subscribed (15-25 cars per class). If the NE cars aren't "anywhere near top ITB times", either the cars or the drivers aren't that well developed.


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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[RSTPerformance]

The IT7 cars would have qualified 3rd at the ARRC with their 1:49.1 and would have dominated the top 5 with the 1:47's in the race...

Look at the results, some of the best cars and drivers.

http://www.arrc-online.com/

Raymond Blethen

[ITSRX7]

Ray,

We just have a fundamental difference of opinion on what is best for the SCCA as a whole. The ITA RX-7 is a popular car that is cheap to find, build and maintain. It is a GOOD CAR TO RACE - and there are plenty of them to be had.

The majority or SCCA members would tell you that when a large pocket of racers has to go off and create their own SPEC class, the SCCA has failed them. IT7, Spec RX-7, etc. I CAN NOT stress any more that the goal would be to put them in a position to be competitive, NOT TO DOMINATE. The SCCA would not be protecting anyones interest or any black-helicopter crap like that either.

Taking unpopular, hard to find and underdeveloped cars and moving them does not serve the interest of the club as a whole, it creates potential problems because there is limited data to make an educated decision. Looking at a fundamental re-org of the classes may, but there isn't much of an outcry for that right now - although the ITAC is looking at IT in a variety of ways.

Gotta say it again, I find it funny you blasted the ITS members here for complaining about the E36 BMW but when ITB gets a little heat, you are very protective. You can't have it both ways.

I am up for the critisism - keep the debate coming. Two reasonable people CAN disagree! Let's hash it out over some beers in April at NHIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh, BTW - lets also understand that IMHO the 7 would have to GAIN weight AND lose an inch of rim width to fit PROPERLY...

AB

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Andy Bettencourt
06 ITS RX-7
FlatOut Motorsports
New England Region #188967

[Bill Miller]

Andy,

You and the other members of the ITAC that post here are championing this whole PCA concept. In addition, recent requests in FasTrack have been shot down (at least temporarily), pending the outcome of the PCA concept. Given that, and given the fact that the RX7s in ITA can, and are running near the front, wouldn't it make more sense to look at adjusting the weight and keeping them in ITA? At least people won't have to go out and buy 6" wheels.

Or what about the concept of adding lead to the Hondas/Acuras? I thought one of the main goals of PCAs was to provide a vehicle to rein in class overdogs?

How can you say that Spec7 is an indicator that the SCCA has 'failed' [sic] those drivers? I would contended that it has just the opposite. If anything, the SCCA (at least at the Regional level), as accomodated the Spec7 drivers by providing them what they wanted, a place to race like cars against each other w/in a limited set of prep rules. Or, would you also say that Spec Miata is another case of the SCCA 'failing' drivers?

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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[cherokee]

Originally posted by apr67:
Many of the other underachivers are so underdeveloped and so rare that moving them presents a danger of creating an overdog.

Has anyone really spent the $30k it would take to make a real MR2 race car?


Just food for thought.

Yep...I think he is ITAMR2 and visits here from time to time. Real nice guy and a very good driver too. There are a couple of others but I don't know if they visit here much.

[cherokee]

Originally posted by Bill Miller:

Or what about the concept of adding lead to the Hondas/Acuras? I thought one of the main goals of PCAs was to provide a vehicle to rein in class overdogs?

[/B]

There is an idea...if you take the Hondas and Acuras out how does the field stack up then? Me thinks RX would be back at the top.

I don't think that 6" tires and a little extra pounds is going to make the 7 fit in ITB....perhaps we should put 240# on them for starters and go from there

[oanglade]

Spec 7 and Spec Miata tell me that it is easier to create a whole new class than it is to change something in IT.



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Ony Anglade
ITA Miata
Sugar Hill, GA

[oanglade]

Originally posted by RSTPerformance:
The IT7 cars would have qualified 3rd at the ARRC with their 1:49.1 and would have dominated the top 5 with the 1:47's in the race...

Look at the results, some of the best cars and drivers.

http://www.arrc-online.com/

Raymond Blethen

The page that lists the track records for Road Atlanta, which I know is not really up to date at least in some cases, has:

ITB: Randy Pobst 1:47.916 Honda Accord
IT7: Atilla Lukacs 1:47.424 Mazda RX-7
ITA: Bob Stretch 1:43.757 Nissan 240SX

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Ony Anglade
ITA Miata
Sugar Hill, GA

[RSTPerformance]

Andy, move my Audi to ITA, I don't care... For me this isn't about a dominating car coming to ITB, it is about a car that IS classed correctly with most ITA cars being moved because it is a popular car being beat by 2 or 3 other cars that have NOT been classed correctly.

Raymond

[RSTPerformance]

Ony-

Make a note that the car Randy Pobst was driving has been reclassed to ITA. Being a driver that Randy is I would suspect that the car was fully developed, however I do not remember ever seeing the car.

The 143 time is fast, and I can understand why the RX-7 guys/girls are complaining, that is unobtainable in a 7 (It also is in 90% of the other ITA cars).

If a class cant be added between ITA and ITS (move the top dogs up from ITA) then I think it would be beneficial to move a TON of the ITA cars to ITB add a little weight to them and ITB would probably become "the class" as most ITA cars are as slow or slower than a RX-7.

Raymond Blethen


[This message has been edited by RSTPerformance (edited March 04, 2004).]

[Jake]

Originally posted by Bill Miller:

Jake,
You should come to Summit Point for a MARRS race.

I have and it was great! With Spec 7 there are a lot of RX7's down there because they don't all have to run in ITA. Heck if there was a Spec MR2 class, the MR2 probably wouldn't have virtually dissapeared from IT either. The sad truth is that more and more people I know are ditching their cheap to run RX-7's and buying expensive and newer Honda/Acuras.

Originally posted by Bill Miller:
The track record for a Spec 7 is a 1:32. And there are a couple of ITA RX7's that run low 1:31's. The ITB track record is a 1:30.499, set by Kaj Bush in a Suzuki Swift.

So it would seem that they aren't all that off the mark for ITB. Not to give the wrong idea, there are a few well-driven RX7's up here that are very quick and would probably take ITB without any other changes to their spec lines.

[7racing]

Originally posted by cherokee:
There is an idea...if you take the Hondas and Acuras out how does the field stack up then? Me thinks RX would be back at the top.

Then the RX7 will be behind the 240sx, VW Golf and Mazda Miata. What else is out there that can beat an RX7?

Now, I don't mind the idea of slowing down the "overdogs", but who decides what the overdog is and how much to slow it down? Is the end result to make them as fast (or as slow) as a mid-pack car? Would need a lot of weight to do that with some of these cars.

I don't act like I know the answers. I chose the route to buy a car that has a chance - a 240sx. I like the idea of making all cars competitive, given that they take full advantage of the rules, though.

Also, I think we are beating up the RX7 here, when that is not the only car that is being questioned in the move to ITB. I would guess there are other cars that should be looked after, as well (maybe everything with a carb).

Jeremy

[oanglade]

Raymond,

It was a yellow Accord coupe. I believe it was P. Keane's car, but I'm not sure.

In any case, I agree with you. The RX-7 is not the only one that should move. It just takes the others to make the same case that the RX-7 has made, I guess.

Maybe it would be easier to add the class between ITS and ITA than to move half of ITA down to ITB.

------------------
Ony Anglade
ITA Miata
Sugar Hill, GA

"Maybe it would be easier to add the class between ITS and ITA than to move half of ITA down to ITB."


and we have a BINGO

[ITSRX7]

Originally posted by Bill Miller:
Andy,

You and the other members of the ITAC that post here are championing this whole PCA concept. In addition, recent requests in FasTrack have been shot down (at least temporarily), pending the outcome of the PCA concept. Given that, and given the fact that the RX7s in ITA can, and are running near the front, wouldn't it make more sense to look at adjusting the weight and keeping them in ITA? At least people won't have to go out and buy 6" wheels.

Or what about the concept of adding lead to the Hondas/Acuras? I thought one of the main goals of PCAs was to provide a vehicle to rein in class overdogs?

How can you say that Spec7 is an indicator that the SCCA has 'failed' [sic] those drivers? I would contended that it has just the opposite. If anything, the SCCA (at least at the Regional level), as accomodated the Spec7 drivers by providing them what they wanted, a place to race like cars against each other w/in a limited set of prep rules. Or, would you also say that Spec Miata is another case of the SCCA 'failing' drivers?

Bill,

Excellent questions.

1. I would say both options are being considered. We are just debating, in theory, the merits of the RX-7 to ITB. I HAVE heard that it would be impossible to take the current ITA RX-7 down another 100-150 pounds therefor making that adjustment useless.

Since PCA's aren't a lock, and won't be available until 2005 if they go through, we haven't drilled down enough to say we would addweight to the top 4 cars in every class...besides, I don't think there is ONE or TWO cars in ITA that can't be beat, there are 3-4 REAL choices.

SPEC 7 and IT7 are a success for the SCCA in terms of the RESULT. The symptom is the considered failure. Just the NEED for such a class is the issue.

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
06 ITS RX-7
FlatOut Motorsports
New England Region #188967

[cherokee]

Originally posted by 7racing:
Then the RX7 will be behind the 240sx, VW Golf and Mazda Miata. What else is out there that can beat an RX7?

Now, I don't mind the idea of slowing down the "overdogs", but who decides what the overdog is and how much to slow it down? Is the end result to make them as fast (or as slow) as a mid-pack car? Would need a lot of weight to do that with some of these cars.

I don't act like I know the answers. I chose the route to buy a car that has a chance - a 240sx. I like the idea of making all cars competitive, given that they take full advantage of the rules, though.

Jeremy

The 7 was the car to have in ITA at one time. On one hand we have the, we need new blood in racing, and on the other we have my car will not run at the front anymore with these new cars. And if we are going to limit adjustments to just adding pounds I don't think is the best idea to keep everyting in ballance.

You yourself chose a 240, cars come and go. At one time there where corvairs everywhere but they just kinda vanashied. What we do have to do is give that guy that wants to run the corvair,TR8, or any other odd duck a fighting chance, and I think that the 7 still has a fighting chance. But you are right it is going to be very very hard.

I also think that IT needs to be re-shuffled. Maybe ITD comes back and everything gets moved around and we will have room at the top for some real fast ITS cars, Supra's, 6cyl mustangs firebirds, 3000gt's, those kind of cars, I realy think that those kind of cars would attract the new blood that everyone seems to want so bad.

[cherokee]

The only thing different between the 7 and Fiero's,MustangII's,Cavalier's,MR2's...., and anything eles is that they had a fighting chance so people built them they where the bee's knee's...The other cars are all slower then a 7 should we move them all to ITB also.
I agree that there is a problem in ITA but moving a once top car down because it is no longer the one to have is the exact wrong reason.

[Phat-S]

I think you have to look beyond one track in any one region to make a determination how capable a car is:

Just for grins and I have NO idea the accuracy of these (and could not find Roebling Road or Lowes Motor Speedway) for SARRC North:

Lap Record (Kershaw from http://www.ccrsolo2.org/old/roadrace/world...cmprecords.htm)
IT7 4/6/2002 RX7 1:54.864
ITA 5/27/2001 MIATA 1:55.980

Lap Record (Virginia Intl. Raceway http://www.ncrscca.com/Pdf/VIR%20Lap%20rec...07-24-2003.jpg)
IT7 11/02/02 RX7 2:17.583
ITA 05/11/03 CRX Si 2:19.169

Lap Record (Road Atlanta http://www.arrc-online.com/ra_laprecords.html)
IT7 1:47.424 Mazda RX-7 3/03
ITA 1:43.757 Nissan 240SX 2002 ARRC

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Adam in Charlotte
#42 ITA CRX Si