"When I started racing, I quit driving like an idiot...

[Quickshoe]

Here's one for your side.

When I was 16, I received two speeding tickets in one day. Between the ages of 16 and 20 I went to traffic school 4 times (max. by law) and still had 3 tickets on my record. That's 7 moving violatiions in 4 years.

At 20, I started racing karts. I've been racing something for the 15 years since. I've received one ticket for speeding.

While my average speed on the streets is lower. The greatest factor in my safer driving and lack of tickets (probably speaking too soon) is the fact that I am much more aware of my surroundings and look farther ahead than almost everyone on the road.

[Knestis]

...so you're saying that racing has made you a more informed, accomplished speeder? That's an interesting concept. I still exceed the speed limit but I do so using a more thoughtful, considered process - rather than just going like hell whenever, wherever. Hmm...

K

[benracin]

I think having some track experience gives you a sense of where it is you get to race and where it is where you don't. I didn't get that so much with Autocross. The short races kept you pumped with no where else to go but the streets. After seeing what tires and a car can do when the conditions are right I lost interest in driving fast on the street. The street car just can't handle that well. Not the same rush I guess. Plus on the street you've got debris, pot holes, etc.

Part of the problem with this street racers is the fact that their street cars are so darn well prepared. It's like putting food in front of a dog, telling him to not eat it and walk away. If they have the tools, they'll want to use them. I had a focus that I auto crossed and because of that I knew what the car could do on the road and I might of used it a couple times. It wasn't till I bought the race car that isn't street legal that I totally lost interest in fast highway driving. I have a car that I can drive fast but not on the street and it's better than anything I've driven on the street, so no more joy in driving fast on the street. When I run across one of the street racer guys on the highway I just say to myself "bring it to the track pal and we'll just see what you've got."

Another thing that helped me slow down of course was selling my focus and buying the truck that tows my racer. When you don't have the equipment with you all the time on the road you loose interest pretty quick as well.

Of course the occasional clover leaf gets a little truck style late braking on it every now and then.

I just kind of feel that if you teach them to drive THEIR vehical, the one they drive every day, faster, they are going to try it sometime. If you teach them to drive a prepared race car where you get that feeling you KNOW you can't recreate on the street, you may have something.

A lot of these tuner kids are just looking for a race all the time you know. It's a hard thing to get out of their heads. I love the idea though. Good luck!

[Geo]

Originally posted by Knestis:
...so you're saying that racing has made you a more informed, accomplished speeder? That's an interesting concept. I still exceed the speed limit but I do so using a more thoughtful, considered process - rather than just going like hell whenever, wherever. Hmm...

K

Exactly Kirk.

For the most part, flowing with traffic. For the most part. Then again, I've been known to do 90 mph on the way to work in the morning. Of course, I was still being passed a lot and I was probably in the 85th percentile at this speed on this road at that time (speed has sence been lowered from 70 to 55 and raised back up to 65). Seriously.


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[Quickshoe]

Originally posted by Knestis:
...so you're saying that racing has made you a more informed, accomplished speeder? That's an interesting concept. I still exceed the speed limit but I do so using a more thoughtful, considered process - rather than just going like hell whenever, wherever. Hmm...

K

Yes sir.

I drive at or very close to the speed limit on major roads w/intersections , shopping centers and such.

I drive below the speed limit in residential areas.

I rarely drive the speed limit on the highway. Usually 10 mph or so above (at or very slightly above the flow of traffic) If I find myself having to change lanes more than once every mile or so, I'm going too fast.

And while towing to the track, I never exceed 65 mph.

Those are my rules of thumb. Certainly not following the letter of the law. Mostly, common sense and the reward/risk calcualtions that us racers tend to do from time to time.

[whenry]

I call it "situational speeding" where the amount of speeding is relative to the situation. There will be areas where no amount of speed is acceptible and others where 20mph+ is not dangerous. This was the standard that I applied as City Court Traffic Judge and Attorney. The cops were really concerned when I got appointed because they knew that I was a fast car freak. They found real quickly that while there were some tickets that I tossed because I felt that the cop had crossed the line, most tickets were upheld if the public interest was being protected ie school zones, dangerous intersections, high traffic areas. I did not like tickets given where there was no traffic, visibility was good and there was no extreme behavior.

[gsbaker]

Originally posted by whenry:
I call it "situational speeding" where... 20mph+ is not dangerous...I did not like tickets given where there was no traffic, visibility was good and there was no extreme behavior.

Bravo. A voice of reason.

------------------
Gregg Baker
Isaac, LLC
[email protected]

[cherokee]

I think it depends on the police in your area...I was on the way home from working from 6am to 2am one day (I wanted to go home) and was going a little fast 67 in a 55. There was not a sole on the roads but one motorcycle cop...got a ticket and he told me that the speed did not go to 70 until I got to that overpass (about a mile away).

still paid the ticket.

[Wayne]

My son is 13 now, and when he turns 16 he will be going to Bondurants teenage driving school. When I was at Bondurant for their racing school I had a chance to sit in on some of the teenage driving school sessions during my breaks. Very impressive stuff. Some of those kids came in their cocky as can be... been playing video games and thought their mad driving skills would impress everyone.

By the middle of day one most them were seriously humbled, after spending time with instructors in the cars, spending time in the skid cars etc. Bondurants "accident avoidance" exercises (on track) were especially impactful on these kids. It's a good thing they do this with plenty of open space as some of those kids mad driving skills were not what they thought they were.

In talking with some of the kids after this exercise they, "had no idea how quickly things can wrong" or, "had no idea how easily it was to loose complete control of car at speed". I realize that many will say I should be teaching my son this type of stuff... and of course I do try. But as any of you with teenagers know, they often will listen to other "authority figures" more then "just dad". I don't care who gets the message across to him, just that it does get across.

Wayne

[jake7140]

Kirk,
A very valuable endeavor you are undertaking. Keep us informed on your progress so we might learn and introduce similar programs locally. Something like this is need for all young/new drivers.

Along with the typical youth feeling of invincibility, goes the lack of understanding of what happens to a car at speed, whatever that speed is. They just have no concept of 30mph vs 50 mph and how that changes what happens, or even how something as big as a car behaves. The biggest thing most have controlled is a bike!

I am currently mentoring a nearly 16 year-old boy who enjoys cars and follows all the general rules of 15 year-old boys. Telling me how this speed part and that makes the ultimate fast car, etc. He practice drives on a small track out behind his house and thinks he's good. So I took him to a local open track event, put in the car with me as I did laps (just touring <60). His comment, "no problen". Then we switched. All of a sudden he got really serious, death grip on the wheel. as he realizes it's not so easy, and the car just doesn't go places on it's own (or it's going someplace and he doesn't understand why!).

Through a lot of coaching and more switching watching and learning, he was more comfortable, but couldn't keep it close to the line. He learned a lot that day and he will hopefully be more aware of the dynamics involved in driving a car.

They know what they know from tv or video games, and it all looks so easy. Combine that with some raging hormones and maybe a few buddies, without prior knwoledge or experience spells the disaster we see on the roads today.

My kids will definitely go through HPDE-type training; not to go fast, but to learn how a car behaves, and to realize the difference that 5mph can make.

I would like to see ALL of the "parallel parking course" driver ed programs gotten rid of and some real "driver ed" required for a license. Mist kids simply do not know what they don't know. Most could learn given the opportunity to do so on other than public roads.

My mentee will be driving in a month, still talks big, but I think underneath has a new understanding. I wish there were more opportunity for HODE learning BEFORE the license gets handed out.

------------------
Steve
[email protected]
<A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/jake7140" TARGET=_blank>My racing page
</A><A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/elrss" TARGET=_blank>Elkhart Lake Racing_&_Sipping Society
</A>

[gsbaker]

Originally posted by jake7140:
...I wish there were more opportunity for HPDE learning BEFORE the license gets handed out.

Jake,

I could not agree more. Skid pad (at least) should be a requisite.

------------------
Gregg Baker
Isaac, LLC
[email protected]

[ITS240z18]

Knestis, what you're trying to do is admirable. Driving to work or the grocery store isn't supposed to be an extreme sport. A few national media outlets carried the story of Bruce Murakami, whose wife and daughter were killed by a teen who was street racing. The father came upon the scene of the accident while the vehicle was burning, with his family still inside. The father pushed to have the kid charged with vehicular homicide or manslaughter, and the authorities finally complied several years later. Then the father negotiated a plea-bargain with the kid - no jail time, drop the felony charges, but the kid had to do community service, speaking to high-schoolers WITH the guy whose family he had killed. http://www.touchedby.com/whathappened.htm

When I read, "The next time a buddy brags about racing, tell him to take it to a track, he said" I realized most folks don't know how easy it is to get onto a track.

Regarding teens and HPDEs... I "adopted" my 17-year-old niece this past summer. I wanted to send her to HPDE because teen driving programs don't teach evasive techniques or emergency response - just following distances and braking. I wanted my niece to understand that she can stay safer when using her eyes and her brains and her hands along with her feet. At 17, she's a good driver, but I could see the inexperience, too. I sent her to the HPDE, but we spent a few hours over the summer discussing why I sent her and why I would be disappointed if she used those skills on the street. Without that heavy dose of "parenting", I think the HPDE would have done more harm than good.

In my opinion, the best way to make someone a considerate, safe, defensive driver is to put them on a motorcycle, in traffic, for a while. Somehow, the risk of road rash (or worse) really brings home the dangers of driving over your head.

It's hard to change something without tackling the root cause. The biggest factor in risky behaviors is how the kid values themself and their future. The kid in that story I mentioned earlier admitted that, at the time of the accident, he didn't really care whether he lived or died. For some of these kids, admiration for their driving "skill" and daring is all the positive reinforcement they get. That's a pretty big challenge to tackle in a public service program.

I tend to thing that more good would come from bringing these kids into the SCCA volunteer ranks - watching the parade of tows after each track session, going out on the course marshall truck and stopping in a panic to pick up a piece of debris that could pop a tire (and thinking "how did they even see that?"), making a contribution (sometimes the first time they ever have), and getting both positive and negative feedback from the adults at the track. Perhaps you could give presentations to the larger groups, and invite interested kids to volunteer with the club. You'd have to start them in fire school "these are the risks, this is the safety equipment we use; as a volunteer, you'll be a pedestrian in the middle of a drag race - hope folks are watching for the yellow flags..." If they're smart, the difference between a road race and a street race will start to click.

[lateapex911]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by whenry:
I call it "situational speeding" where... 20mph+ is not dangerous...I did not like tickets given where there was no traffic, visibility was good and there was no extreme behavior.


Wow....I don't always agree with everything you write, but you have my attention now! The first and only voice of reason I have ever heard behind the bench as it applies to traffic matters... (it seems that the normal judge has no interest in "justice" when it comes to traffic infractions..."justice" is usually reserved for axe murderers, and then it's not always the kind of justice we want!)

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[This message has been edited by lateapex911 (edited October 14, 2003).]

[Diane]

Originally posted by ITS240z18:
When I read, "The next time a buddy brags about racing, tell him to take it to a track, he said" I realized most folks don't know how easy it is to get onto a track.

I agree with that BUT it's so hard to get that in their heads! I am on a few forums and one in particular really tries to frown on street racing. We don't want people posting "how to get out of a ticket", we don't want to hear about how you wasted granny at the traffic light. Once in awhile someone posts the "you guys were right, street racing is bad, one of my friends just got killed" and everyone is good for a few days.

I lost count of the number of times I have challenged them, actually I have a standing challenge for Lime Rock coming up. Guy claims to have (or will have) the fastest Escort in the state. Well, come on out to the track and show me up!

I send them to Richard Welty's racetrack page, SCCA, here, the autox site, hell, I've even found events in their region. Wizard Racing and I have offered passes to NER events.

In the last 3 years we have gotten a handful of guys interested in autox, but it's still too low of a percentage IMO. To them, it's just too easy to cruise the streets rather than drive a couple of hours to a track event. If we can only get them bitten by the bug......

This is a *great* idea, don't get me wrong! I'm just frustrated at how lazy, for lack of a better word, some of these kids can be. We will have to go to them.

[lateapex911]

It's interesting how we are all (kinda)referring to these "kids" ......but I wonder what we were like when we were "kids". We WERE kids, right?

Is this the same tune but to a different beat?

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[mgyip]

Originally posted by Diane:
This is a *great* idea, don't get me wrong! I'm just frustrated at how lazy, for lack of a better word, some of these kids can be. We will have to go to them.

It's not so much lazy as the younger generation expects the world to be handed to them on a platter (silver, of course). HPD events appeal to them but only when it doesn't cut into their partying or recovery time (read: between 2 and 6 pm on weekends). I'm not sure how to "go get them" - my rental child is 17 yrs old and enjoys autocrossing (my cars). However he also loves to sleep to the point that he doesn't want to autocross anymore b/c he has to wake up before the crack of noon. I'm not sure what will motivate these young folks to attend an HPDE other than parental or mentorial (is that a word?) encouragement.

[SamITC85]

Guys these broad generalizatons about kids is one of teh problems. Coming from someone who works with high school kids everyday(I teach)Not all kids, actually a majority are not lazy at all, some are but so are some adults. The big issue I see with HPDE is 2 things. 1 is the location of local tracks. Their are not many road courses especially in certain areas so it makes it difficult for the kids to drive 2 sometimes 3 hours to get to a track. 2 I think money has a lot to do with it. 200 dollars is a big lump of money for them to set down for a day of on track fun. Many kids would rather spend teh 10 dollars at an import drag and spend the extra 190 on their car. This is just my opionon from someone who has been trying and tried to get these kids involved.

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Sam Rolfe
TBR Motorsports
#85 ITC VW Rabbit
#85 GP Scirocco on the way
#11 GP Scirocco on the way

[bobpink]

I was as guilty as many of the kids on the streets today as far as doing things I shouldn't have and got the tickets to remind me, but the biggest difference I am seeing is the aggressive driving habits. I never went out of my way to harass fellow motorists. It is becoming all too common among this age group, but is definitely not limited to teenage kids.

Maybe this is just a big city Atlanta thing....I don't know.

The daughter of a friend of mine is on her learners permit and I have ridden with her a couple of times. Her mother spend the $$$ to send her to a driving course at Road Atlanta and the level of confidence and awareness between before and after was noticeable.

------------------
Bob Pinkowski
Atlanta Region SCCA
OPM Autosports
ITS Honda Prelude (for sale)

[This message has been edited by bobpink (edited October 16, 2003).]

[jake7140]

It's interesting how we are all (kinda)referring to these "kids" ......but I wonder what we were like when we were "kids". We WERE kids, right?

Yes, we were, but now we're older, hopefully wiser and need to impart our wisdowm to the nexte generation. I agree with someone who earlier poste "....and it's amazing we're still alive". Darwin at work, as long as we do our part.

As far as implementation, it need not be an open track full out thing. A lot could be learned in a good size parking lot/cone autocross area.

I still firmly believe most drivers (kids and adults) just don't understand the physics involved. It's just that older people generally apply additional experience and "common sense", where younger people act first, think later, and still live under "ignorance is bliss" because they jsut don't know what they don't know. (the first rung on somebody's learning ladder)

These are generalizations, and I agree, root cause (parenting, attitude, peer pressure, etc) plays a big role, and we can't save everyone, but you never know who you might be saving by teaching one or two.

------------------
Steve
[email protected]
<A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/jake7140" TARGET=_blank>My racing page
</A><A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/elrss" TARGET=_blank>Elkhart Lake Racing_&_Sipping Society
</A>

[whenry]

One of the first things that you learn when you buy your first "fast" car is that most drivers do not understand the concept of closing speed. It is just amazing how many folk will see a gap and fill it regardless of the speed that you are approaching. Of course, since it was me driving above the speed limit, it was my job to get slowed down and miss the guy.
I think that is also why towing is so dangerous; folk dont understand the physics of stopping large tow vehicle and trailer.