NER Club Racing Meeting minutes

[16v]

are now online. There are a couple of interesting things to read


www.ner.org/RR/

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Doug
NER.org
the16v.com
briansgarage.com

[This message has been edited by 16v (edited November 06, 2004).]

[Greg Amy]

I had a big "WTF??!??!" reaction on the LRP Paving Fund mention. Is that an optional fee? Amazing.

[Marianne]

Well apparently the new track manager made a mistake when he said there was "no pave the track fund". It indeed exists but there is no current date pannned for teh repaving.

[dyoungre]

For those of us 'not in the know', can you expand on this? How long has there been a paving fund, what total amount has the region put into the fund, etc? What can we do about it?

Relatively new to the region (2003) and learning about the issues. Thanks!

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Dave Youngren
NER ITA RX7 #61

[bg43wex]

Dave, to answer your questions.

This version of the paving fund has been in place at least the last seven years the fee amount was $750.00 per day of rental or $1500.00 per weekend, to our knowledge ALL clubs who rent the track are surcharged this amount. the amount they have collected from New England region is probably around $10,000.00

There is nothing we can do about this, if we want to play in their sand box.

I just feel bad for all those people who on the Pro weekends pay $10.00 for an "I helped pave the park" bumper sticker..
this seems shaady to me.

brian m

[RKramden]

Originally posted by bg43wex:
This version of the paving fund has been in place at least the last seven years the fee amount was $750.00 per day of rental or $1500.00 per weekend, to our knowledge ALL clubs who rent the track are surcharged this amount.

And, non-clubs, like SCDA who run a drivers school (HPDE) also pay into the fund. I'll bet my paycheck that the only operation that isn't paying into the fund is Skip Barber Racing School (surprise, surprise, surprise...Where's Gomer when you need him...) who seem to be at the track about 100 days a year.

I wonder if Mr. Potter will confirm that Skip School is or is not paying like everyone else?

[Greg Amy]

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">I wonder if Mr. Potter will confirm that Skip School is or is not paying like everyone else?</font>

Irrelevant. What *is* relevant - and I ain't no lawyer - is that if "we" have been paying into a 'paving fund' under contractual agreement/requirement (along with a whole host of spectators) then this is beginning to smell like misappropriation of funds (a la, "fraud".)

Again, I'm a mechanical and computer network engineer, and they're a private organization, but as a customer I'm not pleased with what I'm reading/hearing...

[dickita15]

ok new information. the new track manager now has said there is a paving fund and that he was not aware when he made that statement that an escrow fund existed. I am also told that the exsistance of said fund does not mean that paving will be anytime soon but when it does occur the escrow funds will be applied to the cost of paving. The story of our relationship with lime rock is still evolving. I am hopefull that things will be worked out but I must say it is frustrating to try to cultivate a working relationship of trust and understanding and then to have that upset by personel changes.
dick patullo

[Greg Amy]

So noted. Thanks, Dick. - GA

[RKramden]

Originally posted by 16v:
are now online. There are a couple of interesting things to read
www.ner.org/RR/

Can we get these in some form other than PDF, like a simple web page? It's six screens long, and it would all fit in one or two except for all the wasted space that the PDF layout has.

Also, it loads MUCH slower than a simple web page.

[This message has been edited by RKramden (edited November 09, 2004).]

[16v]

Originally posted by RKramden:
Can we get these in some form other than PDF, like a simple web page? It's six screens long, and it would all fit in one or two except for all the wasted space that the PDF layout has.

Also, it loads MUCH slower than a simple web page.

Thanks for the input Mr Kramden.

At this juncture Acrobat is the de facto method for disseminating documents online. For the sake of uniformity on the NER website, all documents are or will be dispensed in this format for three reasons:

1. reduced file size over the native document
2. ease of editing the native document for online display
3. a common interface experience for users whether they are looking at points standings for the season or meeting minutes.




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Doug
NER.org
the16v.com
briansgarage.com

[lateapex911]

So Dick...I know you wewnt to a NE Div meeting, and the dude from Lime Rock was there....whats the word on new news?

Any paving getting done in the next decade? Drainage? Shower/bathroom improvements?

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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[dickita15]

we (the narrc regions that race at lime rock) spent quite a bit of time meeying with Steve Potter the new LRP track manager.
according to MR. Potter the paving escrow acount exists and has $100,000 plus in it. current oil prices has driven repaving cost up to 1.2 to 1.5 million dollars. no timetable on repaving in the near future.
scca will see a 80% rent increase for 2005.
2004 we paid $11,750 per day. 2005 it will be $20,500 per day. we were told to expect that to increase by $3000 per day in 2006 and 2007. The track claims that they incurr about $10,000 a day in additional expences to run a scca day over what it cost for a drivers ed day. Some of those are percieved as state statute. some are percieved as gcr requirments. most of those are for extra staff. I would rather not get into specific of these cost on this forum but both sides agreed to work to reduce these and any reductions will be take off the rent.
i will save you getting out your calcuators now and say that the effect on entry fees will be a $80 to 100 increase if car counts do not decrease and more if they do. anything firmers on exact entry fees will not be available untill spring.
dick patullo

[Greg Amy]

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">...scca will see a 80% rent increase for 2005....entry fees will be a $80 to 100 increase...</font>

Holy S***, Batman!

Economically (and "businessly") speaking, it seems that things are coming to a head at LRP. It appears at first glance that LRP values its HPDE and school customers more than its SCCA weekend. From a business perspective, I can understand that; less hassles, less expense, less exposure, better community relations. LRP has a finite number of "competition" weekends available, so it's in their best interest to increase its prices to match the demand; they can probably get those rates from PCA, BMWCCA, and/or Ferrari Club if SCCA balks (supply versus demand).

However, I have to wonder if they're possibly shooting themselves in the foot. This situation reminds me a lot of general aviation and airports. Places like Bridgeport Airport realize they make a lot more money from corporate jets than they do from the "fish drivers" in Cessnas and Pipers. It's in their best economic interest to minimize the number of fish and maximize the sharks. However, they overlook the total number of fish versus sharks, plus the related business that the fish bring (restaurants, line workers, repair shops, tie-down fees, etc). Also, they tend to forget that all those shark drivers used to be minnows...

This sitatuion with LRP can be looked at one of two general ways: that LRP truly wants SCCA to remain a customer but its expenses are growing rapidly and it needs to raise revenues to cover them; or, economically speaking the SCCA weekends have a much lower profit margin than what can be gotten from other uses (HPDE, Barber) and they must raise prices to cover that margin and/or ask SCCA to go away. Could be (and probably is) a combination of both. Either way, the result is a significant increase in entry fees to the SCCA drivers. The result of THAT is a decrease in the number of folks wanting to pay to run at LRP.

Dick, I'm not one to complain about entry fees, because that's a small part of the total expenses for a race weekend. But the Region/Division must expect that as the prices rise, there will be a decrease in quantity demanded. Frankly, I think we're out of whack right now, because the quantity demanded is higher than the quantity we can supply, but I hope that increases of entry fees to $300-325 for a weekend at LRP won't bounce us down to the opposite extreme, where we won't have enough folks to cover the costs. It does appear the gravy train days are over, though.

People from the Mid-Atlantic and points south are AGHAST when I tell them how much it costs to rent LRP for a race weekend. Absolutely astounded. Everyone to a "T" says they would not put on an event at that price. Unfortunately, it does no good to go into an economic discussion and let them know we're smack-dab in between two major high-population metro areas with only one true road course, and that one being one of the highest-reputation ones in the country, and further that the chance of getting a new one built in the general area is about that of a snowball in hell, and that the LRP track management is WELL aware of all this...

However, if this doesn't bring the urgency of finding a suitable location and building a New England SCCA club track, frankly nothing will. I think it's high time to add a fee on top of entries to work towards a long-term solution to this problem. It will only get worse.

GregA

[lateapex911]

Just some interesting asides...

40,000 a weekend...

The track runs from march to november...do some math! of course other clubs get it cheaper, and the pro races probably don't pay at all. Of course there is rental I presume form the racing school, (although I understand the contract favors the school from when Skip owned the school AND the track), and other mid week events. Still, it does add up...

1.5 MILLION to pave 1.5 miles of track??

Wow....in 1957 it cost Jim Vaill $7,000 to do the track...


man...we need to build our own track ...antbody know good paving guy?

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[alfa]

Geez, now the Nelson's Ledges paving schedule is starting to make sense!

[moto62]

Wow! Entry fee nearing the $300 mark to run LRP!! No thanks. I'll have to scratch LRP off my schedule for next season. Look at it this way. Figure an average entry fee is $200 bucks anywhere else. That means I can enter a race an additional 125 miles away and end up spending about the same for a weekend.(mojo math-Xtra $100 in the gas tank is good for 25 gall of premium at Connecticut prices $2.50/gall. At 10 mpg, that's good for 250 miles, divided by two to provide for the ride home) Funny, but it actually makes sense. There are probably four or five tracks within a five hour tow from me here in South Ct. Plenty more if I decide to venture further. I won't miss LRP at all. So sad.
Ray

[0100]

Originally posted by GregAmy:


However, if this doesn't bring the urgency of finding a suitable location and building a New England SCCA club track, frankly nothing will. I think it's high time to add a fee on top of entries to work towards a long-term solution to this problem. It will only get worse.

GregA

You said it. I remember, what was it like 5 years ago, when the NER started looking for a site. I was so excited. If only our elders built a bunch of road tracks in the NER, when it was actually possable like LRP. Now adays it seems impossible.

We really need this track in NH and NJ to get built.

[ulfelder]

When this LRP topic came up at the last road race board meeting, I suggested that we contact Topeka, explain the situation to Steve Johnson, and set up a meeting between him and Steve Potter.

This suggestion was quickly dismissed by other board members. I figured they wanted to try to handle the situation as a division, without running to National. But with Dick's latest report, I have to bring up this idea again.

LRP is raising its rates in a way that is damn near prohibitively expensive for three important SCCA regions. We are in grave danger of losing one of the premier race tracks in North America. How is this *not* an appropriate time to call in the chief?

I don't mean Johnson should come in ranting and threatening -- quite the opposite. I believe that with his tact and business sense, he could discuss the long-term importance of the relationship between LRP and SCCA, and perhaps persuade Potter that this trumps short-term revenue needs. Conversely, Potter could explain the business pressures he's facing. Maybe the two could work something out.

Steve Johnson is terrific about responding to email -- can someone explain to me why I shouldn't shoot him a message today?

Or maybe I'm behind (as usual!) and Topeka is fully aware of the LRP situation. Can anyone comment?

Steve U
05 ITS
Flatout Motorsports

[Greg Amy]

Amen, SteveU. NO offense to the folks working locally, but it's time to bring in the Big Guns CEO for a heart-to-heart talk.

I don't mean to be alarmist, but I see this as a serious problem. An IMMEDIATE problem. It is imperative, at a minimum, for the regions that run events at LRP to contact the membership *now* and determine what the entry counts will be at $300-325 a pop. Waiting until the first couple of races to find out the money's not there can be fatal to the region's financial health, especially considering they'll be risking over $40,000 per weekend. Remember how many entries we had for the Pro IT race at $325 per entry? Can we average 6-8 times that many for the Regionals in '05? Remember how we lost the Pocono date because the response wasn't there?

Let's be PROACTIVE on this one, and if necessary, cut bait and walk away. Can these LRP dates be sublet by SCCA to another group? What contractual rights and responsibilities do the regions have for these dates?

How can I get involved in these processes and negotiations (and please don't tell me to show up at the meetings in MA on a Friday night. Won't happen.) - GA