A qusetion about racing at Pocono

[theracinglawyer]

Looks like we will lose Pocono as an SCCA race site altogether, if interested call me tool free 1-800-442-2000x212 and I'll explain, because writing doesn't seem to work

------------------
Love "the commander"
Mike Cefalo
BE SAFE GO FAST HAVE FUN

[benspeed]

My position is that a brief update would be the courteous thing to do to the interested members on this post. If you ask for suggestions and then take a different plan, well an update would go a long way to help people understand. I am pretty disappointed we lost the date and I thought there were quite a few folks who offered help but we didn't get any direction on how to provide the help i.e. event marketing team. There is plenty of time between now and the event to put a few suggestions in motion and market the event a little better to ensure the turnout.

If the date was about to be sublet, it might have been the catalyst to really get people motivated to ensure turnout.

I hope the date isn't lost but it looks that way.

------------------
BenSpeed
#33 ITS RX7
BigSpeed Racing
NNJR

[JohnRW]

Originally posted by theracinglawyer:
Dear Ed. I went back to the beginning of this post and see a lot of suggestions, and not a single response from you.

Where are you?

Now I see that you sold, Gave away, bartered, the date of the Regional Event at Pocono in June. Why would you do that in the time you asked for suggestions and got a ton of great ideas(mine excluded)and then just threw in the towel?

My DAD ALWAYS WARNED ME ABOUT PEOPLE WHO GET TO POSITIONS OF LEADERSHIP AND CAN'T LEAD.usually they lead their troops into battle and don't know what to do and as a result they lose their men to the enemy.

You may have lost a whole lot more, respect that is hard to replace.

At least have the courage to tell your men the true story if in fact you gave away the Pocono dates.

In the original post, Ed was asking for people to write to him with input. He wasn't calling for people to bloviate on the web about his goals, intentions or skills. You took it in that direction, and you made it personal, too.

Tri-Region (a group of three SCCA Regions) runs races at Pocono. They have a governing council. Ed is a member of that council, and is the current chairman. He doesn't decide anything by himself.

Who here has written/emailed him ? Who here has talked to one or more of them on the phone about Pocono dates ? Just taking a personal shot on the web doesn't count.

Web boards are a lousy place for discussion, since everyone is an 'expert'. You just need a computer and a phone line, and suddenly your endowed with great 'wisdom', and are indistinguishable from all the other 'wise experts'.

I've emailed Ed and several other of the Tri-Region board. I've talked to several of them on the phone. It wasn't hard. They're not hiding. I will guarantee that they'll eventually walk away in disgust if their character is impugned by 'wise experts' on the web.

Mike - you said that you choose your words carefully. Well then, I'm going to have to assume that you've posted the quote above due to discussions that you've had outside the venue of this board, because there sure as hell hasn't been anything presented here that would lead any of the rest of us to infer what you have inferred above. Please enlighten us. If you haven't been working in the background on this issue, then I'm going to give you 'gasbag' status.

[theracinglawyer]

John, Just for the Record I put My full name on My comments,and my email address and toll free number and surprising a lot of people call and write and tell me a whole lot of information.

Surprising most people are helpful and concerned and informative.

Read my posts over and over and you'll see the realationship I have with Pocono.

Everytime I have offered to help I am ignored so that now the hammer is about fall I'm going to stand by and watch it fall.

The driving schools and car clubs are sucking up dates and they are making money doing it. Does that tell you something?It tells me they know how to run a business and do it well.

I did't start this post I only tried to help and got a face full of it.

Ask whose dealelship supplies the cars for the NASCAR boys to run around in, and meets with the owner of the track on a regular basis.

Call me Toll free and I'll TALK TO YOU PERSONALLY.

------------------
Love "the commander"
Mike Cefalo
BE SAFE GO FAST HAVE FUN

[theracinglawyer]

John, Just for the Record I put My full name on My comments,and my email address and toll free number and surprising a lot of people call and write and tell me a whole lot of information.

Surprising most people are helpful and concerned and informative.

Read my posts over and over and you'll see the realationship I have with Pocono.

Everytime I have offered to help I am ignored so that now the hammer is about fall I'm going to stand by and watch it fall.

The driving schools and car clubs are sucking up dates and they are going to get more and they are making money doing it. Does that tell you something?It tells me they know how to run a business and do it well.

I did't start this post I only tried to help and got a face full of it.

Ask whose dealelship supplies the cars for the NASCAR boys to run around in, and meets with the owner of the track on a regular basis.

Call me Toll free and I'll TALK TO YOU PERSONALLY.

Mike Cefalo--Email [email protected] Toll free # 1-800-442-2000-x212

------------------
Love "the commander"
Mike Cefalo
BE SAFE GO FAST HAVE FUN

[Mattberg]

Interesting. First, I know Mike simply came to the same deduction that I and many others probably did. Suggestions were asked for to save a race and it seems that the conclusion was foregone. Why bother asking? Good leaders don't leave themselves open to such perceptions. Second, you want to be a racechair, be ready to take some heat. Can't please all the people all the time and if you want to run the show, be accountable. Dick, you always jump to the defense of officials yet you never ask for accountability from same for lack of results. There are some basic skills related to putting on an event and from all the comments I see here, marketing seems to be one of them that is sorely lacking. If you can't do the job, don't volunteer. You just want us to say the fact that someone would volunteer to do the job is meritous enough to ignore the actual outcome...no race. Remember who the customer is and what the product is...you got 'no product. This is not a social organization that can ignore whether races happen or not. It is a racing club supported almost exclusively by racers racing. No racing? no money, no club. I'll get to that in a minute.

If you want to run a successful event you need to do something other than publish its "potential" (tongue in cheek) existence at a website or newsletter and ask for ideas that will never be implemented. Mike hit the nail on the head. I think Dick totally discounted Mike's insight into what went down here and the ramifications both short and long term.

Not to toot my region's own horn but a look at the SEDIV might do some of these regional race officials some good. My last four regional races had 108 (yup), 91, 60 and 79 entries....in my racegroup! We consistently attract 300+ cars. How? Pro IT, The SARRC, Regional Series, Enduros and Vintage races have been added to most if not all events. I heard radio ads all the way up on my last trip. Corporate sponsorships are in place. We've made great efforts at electronic timing and automated registration. Less important in my mind but seemingly important to many, trophies are at tech after each racegroup and they come to YOU. The other thing is track time. We run a car in the NE as well and I am always amazed at the lack of track time for the money. Just an example... Atlanta in March I ran an RX-7 (ITS) which ran in all of the races. I think I paid a total of $350 in entry fees for something like 3.5+ hours of track time...Having done another 2+ hours in the previous test day I was so beat I sold one of my SARRC races and half my Enduro to another driver and covered all of my entry fees. In addition, I received a contingency check the last week for just one of those series that actually covered all of my entry fees for the year. What does all this add up to? MARKETING! And...HAPPY CUSTOMERS.

Back to the cancelling of a race. The scariest problem with all of this has not been cited. The event in question was sold out to an HPDE... I said many months ago that as a National organization, if we didn't get our act together with respect to competition, marketing, staying current and building some youth into our product and membership, that we'd be begging 18 year old rice racers to race with them. When they can put on events with 4,000 spectators and we can't get 100 participants...uh...a warning sign? Ya' think? I better go practice my drifting....:-)

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by Mattberg:
.....Remember who the customer is and what the product is...you got 'no product. ...... No racing? no money, no club.....

Ok, since nobody here seems to want to point to the facts in the manner, lets suppose that the Tri Region sub-letted out the date this year, due to the fact that it was in confict with two other established dates inclose geographic proximity. To run a race weekend, several items need to be available, but the major two are drivers, and workers. Yes, I know some of you don't think workers are required to put on an event, but I suggest the insurance carrier, among others, begs to differ.

So what's better, having an event that requres a known expenditure, draws little income (resulting in a loss) and results in a sub par event due to un-staffed specialties, or taking a years break until a non-conflicting date can be gotten? Some regions don't have a lot of events available to them, and one major loss can put them under. (And we can discuss whether we need as many regions as we have, but lets do that in another thread.)

Not to toot my region's own horn but a look at the SEDIV might do some of these regional race officials some good. My last four regional races had 108 (yup), 91, 60 and 79 entries....in my racegroup! We consistently attract 300+ cars.

C'mon, lets compare apples to apples. How long are the tracks you refer to? Fact is that a race group at either Lime Rock or NHIS can't be more than 40 or so cars, due to the length of the track. After that, it's simple math. Curfews dictate when you start and finish, and the rest is division. It is extremely difficult to provide quality time for the participants when you can't start until 9, you have to have quiet time at lunch, and shut down is before 6. Count yourself lucky, but take no credit for, your regions luck in it's track availability.

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\"> I heard radio ads all the way up on my last trip. </font>

And why would a region advertise when it can't accept any more entries without shortening track sessions...sessions that you consider too short? Around here, it would be a waste of money.

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\"> In addition, I received a contingency check the last week for just one of those series that actually covered all of my entry fees for the year. What does all this add up to? MARKETING! And...HAPPY CUSTOMERS. </font>

Interesting, but I'd like a more complete picture. What did you finish in your class at the end of the year? How many guys were in your class? What did they pay? What about the other classes? How far down do they pay? What I'm getting at is the distribution, and it's actual effectiveness. Is just a redistribution of entry fees? Or does it add funds to actually drive the cost of racing down to more than the guys lucky enough to wind up on top?

If it comes from corporate funding, that's great. Who organizes and arranges that? Region volunteers?



------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by theracinglawyer:


The driving schools and car clubs are sucking up dates and they are going to get more and they are making money doing it. Does that tell you something?It tells me they know how to run a business and do it well.

No, it tells me that they are driving schools and car clubs . Which are different than a racing club that offers racing and insurance to a vast array of racing classes and cars.

We can talk about how the SCCA should get into the driver ed business, as that's where the future racers are likely to originate, but that's another thread.

To compare a racing organization to a lapping organization, is completely irrelevant, and to place the difference on marketing is plain misleading. It costs less to put on a lapping day, less entries are needed to break even, and that results in more track time. Racing events take a more committed participant, and requires more of them. A much tougher enterprise.

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[dickita15]

well hello matt, how the heck are you.
I understand how you and mike could come to the same conclusuion but that does make it the right one. I also understand your perception that i support people that contribute to the running of events. there is a lot of truth in that perception. While I understand that you think I do not hold these people accountable I belive that perception is false. I do plead guilty to not trashing volunteers in public forums. I am not sure who Tri region Ed is but I do know something about the situation that the regions that run poccono have to deal with. I do not think there was a solution to this date at this track this year but Ed was making an effort to find one. I could care less about personal attacks between regular posters in a rules thread but what is gained by crappy shots like Mike's aimed at someone who tried to seek input. based on what i read in this thread i feel mike's comments were out of line, and i said so.
I know Mike, though he does not seem to know me, i used to race against him when he and marc were in ITA. I have spoken to he and his son numerous times, but based on what i know and have read i belive his comments were wrong.
By the way re read jakes comments on track length and the impact on race organazation and track time. this has a huge impact. I admit there a many things we could do to make the program better. the only thing lacking is people to imlement them. i admit that there are volunteers in positions that could do the job better, that are hurting the effort to make the race program the best it can be. the only thing lacking is more, better people to do those jobs. I know it take a lot of time and money to campaign a car, and it take a lot to volunteer to advance our programs, and this is more than some are willing to do. But unless people step forward and try to make it better it will not get better. yes, volunteering takes time from your racing, but that is the only way to make a difference. trashing volunteers contributes nothing.
dick patullo
meb# 96265
ner scca

[ITSRX7]

The biggest issue I have here with Matt and the Cefelo's comments is simple:

Just because I ASK you for your opinion or help, doesn't mean I have to USE it. If someone posts a bad idea, does that person have the right to stand up and say, "you asked me for my thoughts and you still did nothing!" Nope. Ideas are just Ideas unless you called Ed and told him you would volunteer.

As Dick stated, this date was as good as lost for the season and Ed's message seemed to be a last ditch effort before letting the date go for the year. I bet you the Tri-region tries to implement SOME of the ideas thrown out there by this group.

A simple request for an update would have sufficed - instead it looks and sounds like both of you are blaming HIM for the lost date and for not proactively updating. He asked for some opinions, he got them and that's that. He OWES us NOTHING. Would it be nice to know what is going on? Sure it would - that is what I would have ASKED instead of slammed him.

No excuses.

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
06 ITS RX-7
FlatOut Motorsports
New England Region #188967

[benspeed]

The one thing I will add is that the folks who care about the race date should turn out for the NNJR membership meeting on 2/17. The Exchange Restaurant in Rockaway hosts the meeting at 8:00 PM. I think some planning for the event next year should start now. Matt - the driver from the SE, described some things I'd like to see up here. We start working now - we make the events the best they can be.

All this comes down to is better marketing, communication and coordination. We should also consult with others on event planning. I haven't done this type of thing before but I'm signing up at the meeting.

Cheers,

------------------
BenSpeed
#33 ITS RX7
BigSpeed Racing
NNJR

[ITSRX7]

Originally posted by benspeed:
...but I'm signing up at the meeting.

Cheers,

Hey! There is a novel idea...less chatter on the web and more actual volunteering. Ben, your help will be greatly appreciated I am sure.

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
06 ITS RX-7
FlatOut Motorsports
New England Region #188967

[This message has been edited by ITSRX7 (edited February 09, 2004).]

[Terry Hanushek]

Mike

I just got back from the National Convention and read all of the speculation about the June Regional at Pocono.

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">Where are you?</font>

Ed is not a regular contributor or lurker on Internet BBS. He does read the IT BBS and this thread periodically. As a member of the Tri Region board, I'll try to provide some insight.

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">Now I see that you sold, Gave away, bartered, the date of the Regional Event at Pocono in June. Why would you do that in the time you asked for suggestions and got a ton of great ideas(mine excluded)and then just threw in the towel?</font>

No one person made the decision on this year's June Regional. After a long and painful discussion of the event, the entire Tri Region Board voted to bypass the regional and sublet the track this year.

While there were many factors in our deliberation, the most compelling ones were (1) the 2003 event which had very poor support resulting in a HUGE financial loss and (2) the 2004 schedule conflicts making this year's event even more difficult. Our final decision was based on the fact that we could not absorb a similar or larger loss in 2004 and continue to organize events at Pocono in the future.

Ed started this thread before our meeting seeking competitor input to make our events more attractive (and better attended). Unfortunately, many of the suggestions cannot be implemented in the short run e.g. MARRS and NARRC sanctions are unavailable in 2004. The input has been valuable and we will attempt to utilize it for future events.

My DAD ALWAYS WARNED ME ABOUT PEOPLE WHO GET TO POSITIONS OF LEADERSHIP AND CAN'T LEAD.usually they lead their troops into battle and don't know what to do and as a result they lose their men to the enemy.

You may have lost a whole lot more, respect that is hard to replace.

I indicated that the board deliberations were complex. Certainly, one of the factors we examined was the impact of missing a year. In the end, the negatives far outweighed the positives and we were forced to abandon this weekend while retaining our options for 2005 and beyond.

The other side of leadership is not leading your men into battle that has a very high probability of failure. While the battle analogy is a bit extreme, many alternatives were examined and a hard decision was made to protect Tri Region's resources.

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">At least have the courage to tell your men the true story if in fact you gave away the Pocono dates.</font>

I hope that this posting has given additional insights on the Tri Region decision. If you have any other questions or would like further discussion, please feel free to contact me or the Tri Region reps from your region.

Mike, Tri Region sincerely appreciates the support that you and Marc have given us in the past years. We value your input and would like you to participate in our future planning.

Terry

[This message has been edited by Terry Hanushek (edited February 09, 2004).]

[benspeed]

Terry,

Thanks for the update - we understand that the region cannot afford to go into the red on events. Let's give it a tip top effort for '05 as a team and make sure we offer some engaging things that will bring out the membership. NAARC points, enduros, trophies, proactive marketing and my favorite end of day thing - a cold beer!

Cheers,



------------------
BenSpeed
#33 ITS RX7
BigSpeed Racing
NNJR

[theracinglawyer]

Terry, thanks for the update, I sorry we had to give up the date at Pocono but then I'm used to making economic decisions and they usually are not easy.You explination helps us better understand.

Pocono is as they say is our home track and any races there are easy for us,so it effects us more when we lose a race date, like your home team lost a date. But if I'm still kicking next year we won't lose it again.

I just wish I knew we were in financial difficulty maybe I could have done something, but that's for later.

To all of you who found fault with me Thanks for letting me know.
For those who supported me thank you.

I'll help you with anything I can.

For as much as I like Skiing I'm going back to Florida for the rest of the winter.

Write and tell me what you think I can help with, Marketing is what I like and do best.




------------------
Love "the commander"
Mike Cefalo
BE SAFE GO FAST HAVE FUN

[lateapex911]

Terry-

Thanks for filling us in, and it appears that the end result was as some posters presumed. I think the most prudent direction was chosen.

Also, your update was very diplomatic.

Regards,

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[Greg Amy]

A constructive suggestion: The next time that such a trial balloon is floated to this board (or any Internet board, for that matter), it would be very helpful to provide the context.

I, myself, thought the original request was for a longer-term decision, such as next year; not a short-term one, such as "if we don't get positive feedback within the next couple of days we're going to drop the date for 2003." Had I known the background for the info request I would have responded - positively - and probably committed to appearing at the event in order to save it.

I suspect many others on this board feel the same way and also feel misled by the initial question.

Greg

[RSTPerformance]

Terry-

Thanks for the update... I knew if we were patient we would get one

I would suggest after seeing all the upset responces here that it might be in a best interest to have an article sent to all the Northeast Region publications to explain the long term plan to make for a better event, and that because of X we made a financial decision to cancel this event for the good of the club. This will keep all of the "other" members (whome most are not with this board) informed and happy.

thanks again

Raymond 'looking forward to 05" Blethen

[Terry Hanushek]

Thanks for your understanding and support for our problems at Pocono.

Ed's original posting was looking to the long term. It was not a 'do or die' for the June Regional. Last fall when we saw the conflicts with other Club Racing events, we attempted to develop a solution using other SCCA activities like Solo 1 and Solo 2. Unfortunately, those plans did not come together.

We believe that most of the problem with this year's event was created by the date conflicts and have already started to work toward a more suitable date in 2005. It is expected that the loss of this year's event will be a one-time occurence.

We appreciate your suggestions and will try to utilize as many as possible in the June 2005 Regional.

Terry

[jimmy p]

Hello All,
I have ben reading this thread with interest mainly because like Mike, I am a local to Pocono (30 minute tow) so I am always interested in what goes on there.

FWIW, up front, I do not club race (at least not yet) I am a Solo 1 / TT competitor.

What about combined "small track" events at Pocono?

Has this ever been considered?

Pocono has three tracks in it,,, which can all run at the same time.

What would you all think of doing a combined event using the following format (this is totally hypothetical off the top of my head):
Saturday:
North Course: Race groups ex. IT / AS / Prod
South Course: race Groups ex. SS / T1 / T2 / GT
East Course: Solo1 - Time Trial

SUNDAY:
Race groups swap tracks
Solo 1 stays on east course - runs different direction (everyone says East is too narrow for Wheel to Wheel racing)

This gets more racer on the tracks, increases track time, gets full utilisation of the facility.

When I started getting into solo 1 there was something like this at Pocono. That was the year before I built my car,,, I then built my car and the event went away (supposedly the racers hated something about it). Now we have no Solo 1s at Pocono.

I probably drive Pocono as much as anyone,,, maybe more,,, about 12 - 14 days or more every year. Either instructing, competing in TTs, or doing lapping days.
I like the individual tracks there.
Like Pocono's big track,,, all three are very different and fun in their own way.

Would no racers come if they raced on the smaller tracks?

Is Pocono's only appeal the long course configuration (which I personally think is kind of a bore)???

Heck the North course is the same length as Lime Rock.

The South course is the only place in the Northeast you can get a taste of the banking. The South course can even be run both directions (which is alot of fun).

I know alot of guys cross over from SCCA to EMRA and EMRA "only" runs the individual courses because thats what they can afford,,, and they do very well.
Every EMRA event I have ever attended there was very well sold.

Not drawing comparisons here, but I think maybe an SCCA re-think of the big picture Pocono strategy might be in order.
Maybe if attendance is down drop down to one of the smaller tracks or run a combined event using all three tracks .

I dunno, I am just brainstorming,,, quite self serving really,,,, mostly because I'd love to see a Solo1 back at Pocono, which has it best likelyhood if it was tied to a Club Race,,, and that does not seem likely at all given the trouble they are having putting on races there.

My last thing,,, Like my buddy Mike has said,,, give the Pocono guys a break,,, they are good guys.
A little gruff until you break the ice,,, but good guys.
Just keep in mind they see ALOT of knucklehead "hotshoes" there every summer. That track works 7 days a week from April until Oct. Usually all 3 courses going all the time.
Once you get to know them a little they are great guys and will really help you out if you need it..

Sorry for the long post.
Thanks for reading this far.
Cheers
Jim Pettinato
Scranton, PA
#98 BMW M3 - ITE