how low will you go?

[dickita15]

Well given the current situation at LRP and the ongoing discussion of needing to site a new track the topic of noise is timely.
when talking to town officials and neighbors the subject of noise comes up very early. Acording to engineers with wide open terrain we would need miles of buffer in order to not make any noise that would offend others.
at lrp we run at GCR 103. at NHIS we run at 100 dB. club days at lrp run at 89 dB.
in order to have a new track in new england how low can we run.
at what noise level will enough of you still want to race there
dick patullo

[Greg Amy]

The decibel level of my race car is irrelevant to how much fun I have; I got just as much kick out of Showroom Stock as I do in Improved Touring. If it means the difference between a new track and not, I am willing to go as low as reasonably possible to make it happen ("reasonably" meaning within current street muffler technology, no high-tech super-expensive stuff.)

Anyone who has to have noise to have fun racing is a wanker.

[mlytle]

but...
noise sometimes equals horsepower. if someone already has a 102db exhaust system tuned to their car and runs at multiple tracks that allow it, running at a track that requires 90db becomes either really expensive or a non-option.

[Greg Amy]

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">...noise sometimes equals horsepower.</font>

Sometimes, but everyone will have the same restriction. Some will also respond better to street mufflers, just as some respond better to open exhausts.

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">...running at a (sound restricted) track that requires 90db becomes either really expensive or a non-option.</font>

As is racing at tracks that charge $25,000 per day.

[MMiskoe]

Dick - start with no restriction & let the town grind you down. Regardless of what noise limit is set, someone will bitch and try to get it lowered.

Am I wrong? If so point out a track that has been able to raise its sound limits in the past 5 years.

Use the GCR limit as your basis for SCCA "races", leave the rest open.

Matt

[dyoungre]

I hate to get technical right off the bat, but to compare apples to apples, we have to know the distance between the microphone and the edge of the track. I've asked for that info from Waterford Hills, where the limit is 75 dB. Talking with their chief of tech, he said that his 75dB car measures 92dB at Mid Ohio - BIG difference (sound intensity measurements go down proportionally to the square of the distance to the source ). My 75dB Waterford car measured 83 dB at NHIS.
Tim brought up a good point, too, as far as the specifics of the rule/ordinance: He recommends "If they are being proactive, they may be able to tweak the rules in their favor, things like a single car may not exceed X vs. the track can't exceed X, that sort of thing" - two equal cars at 75dB passing the meter at the same time will register somewhere around 78 dB. That's where Waterford has some issues with the local authorities ...

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Dave Youngren
NER ITA RX7 #61

[Scott Koschwitz]

Dick, just to clarify, when you say
"wide open terrain," do you mean relatively flat and lightly wooded? Would the size of the buffer be reduced depending on elevation, walled or heavily wooded buffers, or other buildings (ex., light-industrial buildings proposed as satellite developments of the track (good selling point is that they provide local jobs)).

Obviously, the larger the parcel for the track the better, because it allows for more flexibility in track design and larger buffers, which would ease restrictions on exhaust systems.

As for me, I run in SSM, so we're required to run the Mazda Motorsports exhaust, which I think can meet 89db without too much of a problem.

[RSTPerformance]

I will go to any DB level needed. I think the option of racing more is better than the option of racing less at a higher DB level. On another note someone said that this will increase cost... yes it will only for those major diehards who can afford it.

Most of us probably havn't (or cant afford to) perfected our exaughst systems yet, so how much of a difference will it really make compaired to current??? JMO

Also on another note... I think sound restrictions would have a less impact on giving cars "better potential" than the layout of any track we currently run at.

Raymond "what did you say?" Blethen

[dickita15]

Originally posted by MMiskoe:
Dick - start with no restriction & let the town grind you down. Regardless of what noise limit is set, someone will bitch and try to get it lowered.
Matt

well matt the problem with that approach is there does not seem to be a place in new england that does not either have current noise standard or a site plan review or both. in a site plan review you will need to set a standard and then prove that that will not be offensive. or you could do like the new track in arizona. stretcg the truth, get the permit, spend millions to build the track and then get shut down.
dick

[dickita15]

Originally posted by Scott Koschwitz:
Dick, just to clarify, when you say
"wide open terrain," do you mean relatively flat and lightly wooded? Would the size of the buffer be reduced depending on elevation, walled or heavily wooded buffers, or other buildings (ex., light-industrial buildings proposed as satellite developments of the track (good selling point is that they provide local jobs)).

yes flat and open is the worse case. 40 cars @ 103dB something insane like 2.5 mile to get to 70dB. Thick woods is much much better but still distance is needed.

Obviously, the larger the parcel for the track the better, because it allows for more flexibility in track design and larger buffers, which would ease restrictions on exhaust systems.
[/B]

well sure but we are talking big numbers. A track can be squeezed into 100 acres but if we have to buy 1500 acres to make it work we have to go to northen maine to afford or even find such a parcel.

so if a track opened that was 95db or 90dB would you build an exhaust system for that track or would you tend to go to other tracks only to avoid the hassle.
dick

[dickita15]

Originally posted by dyoungre:
I hate to get technical right off the bat,

dave
thank you for sending me the info you gathered. i will share it with my sound guy.
for the sake of this discussion though i want to stick to scca measurement methods as that is what most on this forum will understand.
dick

[Racer Chris]

I would be comfortable with a limit of around 95dB by SCCA standards. I currently run a single muffler on my Prod car at all events and never see readings above 93dB.

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Chris Foley
www.tangerineracing.com

[gran racing]

I'm o.k. with the 89 db limit that LRP uses for HPDEs. (EMRA also uses this limit when racing at LRP.)

For these events, I just slip on a super trap extension to the back of my exhaust pipe and that takes care of things. Irronically the best lap times I've ever gotten have been with the super trap extension on. Hmmm. Maybe I shouldn't take it off for SCCA days?

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Dave Gran
NER ITB #13
'87 Honda Prelude si

[Scott Koschwitz]

Assuming a new track (preferably in northern Connecticut or central Massachusetts), if my current exhaust couldn't meet sound requirements, and assuming I could legally modify it to reduce sound, I would in a heartbeat.

Is it too early to start compiling a wish list of track features?

[MMiskoe]

Dick I was thinking more of the idea that regardless of what level you set, neighbors will try to have it reduced. Period. Don't stretch the truth, just tell them it is what it is. If you set it at 80dB someone would still complain.

Also just because us IT guys don't really mind lowering sound, doesn't mean that a big revenue generating event that would be otherwise willing to rent the track might turn away from it due to the noise restrictions (Bridgehampton come to mind???). Don't hamstring yourself.

Not likely I am telling you anything you haven't already thought of.

[moto62]

Originally posted by dickita15:
..in order to have a new track in new england how low can we run.
at what noise level will enough of you still want to race there
dick patullo

Considering that my car won't register any db at fifty feet from the meter, I would have to say that any db would be fine .
Ray

[dickita15]

Originally posted by MMiskoe:
Dick I was thinking more of the idea that regardless of what level you set, neighbors will try to have it reduced. Period. Don't stretch the truth, just tell them it is what it is. If you set it at 80dB someone would still complain.

point taken

Originally posted by MMiskoe:
Also just because us IT guys don't really mind lowering sound, doesn't mean that a big revenue generating event that would be otherwise willing to rent the track might turn away from it due to the noise restrictions (Bridgehampton come to mind???). Don't hamstring yourself.
Not likely I am telling you anything you haven't already thought of.[/B]

It is kind of ironic that the only groups that need to run loud and do not draw crowds are us and vintage.
dick

[dickita15]

Originally posted by Scott Koschwitz:
Is it too early to start compiling a wish list of track features?

while i would still like more input on this thread a new thread would be fun.
dick

[John Herman]

One of the items which may make more sense to implement as sound limits become more restrictive is a stationary type test. Our current noise limits are influenced by many factors, all of which occur while the cars are moving around and in packs. SAE J1169 is a stationary tailpipe noise test which has been adopted in California (and a few other states that I'm not sure of)to limit the rice rocket exhausts. Basically, a microphone is placed at 0.5m @ 45 degrees, and the engine is raised to 3/4 the rated engine rpm. The sound can not exceed 95 dB(A) or the person is issued a citation. What I see as nice about this type of test, is a car can be tested before its raced, or in impound, etc. to determine compliance. A test like this may need tweaking for the various classes (the open wheel classes come to mind), but then you have a hard and fast rule that you can prepare for long before getting to the track.

[dyoungre]

I too am good with 89 dB by SCCA standards.

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Dave Youngren
NER ITA RX7 #61