Hawthorne Potest - Que Pasa'

[Tkczecheredflag]

Just curious - how did Shane's protest work out. Looked like tech was short of neccessary stuff and announcements were being made for measuring equipment to make it all happen. Any update on how things turned out.
Tim Klvana
ITC #11

[Greg Amy]

By the time I left after the ninth race (when it began to rain) there was only rumors and innuendo, nothing either reliable or official. The Group 1 Results remained Provisional with a note that official results would not be available for two weeks.

GA

[p99ro]

??????????? I though TECH was soposed to have test equipment to check tech when a protest is made.It seems that equipment needs to be certified and avalable with certified people to perform tech. And I thought parts are sopposed to posses Part #
If not then would that not be a point of not proving that it was a stock Honda Part?

[lateapex911]

Rumours and innuendo it will remain, as final results of the protest will not be available until Topeka does its thing.

(For those that don't know, The Hawthorne car was sent to scrutineering by 5 ITA drivers)

But.............

Gotta tip the hat to two guys on either side of the protest, Shane and Anthony.

A protest is a stressful experience from either of the three sides (the protest writer, the protestee, and the scrutineers), but give credit to Shane who put his head down and drove a solid race, winning, and putting down a flying lap of 1:01.9. Which is the first time an ITA car has recorded a sub 1:02 lap in competition. Wow.

But it gets better. Anthony (who was reportedly helping someone with a car thing and was late to grid) started from the back, ran thru the field, all the way to second. But...get this....he put down a lap of 1:01.6! Wow, again.

As Anthony ran at the front of the ARRC last year, and ultimately finished 2nd, he has to be considered a true contender for the win in Atlanta, and Shane would be well advised to make the trip as well.

Impressive stuff, guys.....anyone know what kind of times ITS turned today?

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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[dominojd]

Originally posted by lateapex911:

Impressive stuff, guys.....anyone know what kind of times ITS turned today?

Anthony and Shane would have had the 3rd and 5th fastest race laps respectively.

ITS Leverone 101.424
ITS Driscoll 101.564
ITA Serra 101.6xx
ITS Hendo 101.819
ITA Shane 101.9xx
ITS Stewart 101.982


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Crazy Joe
#7 ITS
Nissan Sentra SE-R

[VTECAcuraGSR]

I am not sure what the outcome will be, but they sure had a lot of SCCA officials around his car all afternoon. Is it just me, but why did they keep asking for tools? Shouldn't SCCA keep a set of tools like a bore gauge in their "tool belt" for protests? It seemed as though they didn't have their "stuff" together!

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Jeremy Billiel

Coming Soon: ITS Acura Integra GSR

[joeg]

Jeremy--This is not NASCAR (or professional)racing...Thank God. It's CLUB racing!

Tech officials are not equipped with a Snap-on truck load of tools.

[Dick Elliott]

You should have said "not very professional" I've never been to a back woods dirt track that didn't have a way to inspect a protest. A sad state of afairs.

Originally posted by joeg:
Jeremy--This is not NASCAR (or professional)racing...Thank God. It's CLUB racing!

Tech officials are not equipped with a Snap-on truck load of tools.

[Tom Blaney]

removed


[This message has been edited by Tom Blaney (edited October 09, 2004).]

[Fiesta#80ITC]

This is why they try to talk people out of a protest all the time

[RSTPerformance]

Yes, it is annoying, but please remember that the SCCA is run with Volunteers...

As drivers we too should be volunteers to make this organization run. It is truly a sad state of affairs when we (drivers) expect volunteers to also supply thousands of dollars worth of tools... Then donate their time, the least we can do is donate a tool we are not using...

If the current system doesn’t work, then maybe the protester also should be required to supply mechanics to do the teardown?

Please don’t think that I do not agree that more scrutinizing should be done… I agree that it should, I just don’t agree that we should expect these volunteers to start supplying tools.

Raymond "Give some people a break, if they can not complete a protest because they don’t have the tools, then it is OUR (drivers) own fault... the volunteers were their to do the job" Blethen

[itbgti]

Raymond,

I thought the "region" owned all the tech tools/equipment....therefore, I think people have a legitimate complaint when our region does not have the tools. No one would expect volunteers to front the cost of equipment (scales, etc)

Note: I understand some protests may require independent third party analysis, depending on the level of complexity...I do not know the details of the above protest, so I cannot comment either way if they should have had these tools present.

[bg43wex]

"When the protest fee is in excess of $800.00 the tech inspector damn well better have the tools that he needs."

Tom the price of the protest is not a profit center for a region it is payment to a competitor incase they are found innocent, less a small fee to the region.

all regions are have the nessasary tools to perform standard compliance checks.

expecting a region to purchase enough hand tools and specialty tools to perform engine tear downs on every type of car that competes is unrealistic.

Again we are gentleman racing self policing. I beleive this means we all chip in to help?

brian m

[Tom Blaney]

removed

[This message has been edited by Tom Blaney (edited October 09, 2004).]

[p99ro]

I raced in a small GO-Kart club. Monies were found to have tech equipment to perform the same tests. They do it to the top three of all classes. Do you know many ways you can cheat a lawn mower engine? Thats stock appering. But a few tools that would cost maybe $1000.00 could do the job. It`s not like we have to buy fire exstishers they don`t seem to work anyway. But to say your going to cc a motor and promise you`ll have the tools. Then show up not doing it. Whats that say GO ahead put in a V8 350 in my car and go. It looks like an engine.
P.S. God bless our voulenters but give them the tools and knowledge to carry it out.
We have Millions of dollar`s of race cars and tools and the Number one sports car club can`t determine other than looking at it with an eye that a part is legal.

[This message has been edited by p99ro (edited October 04, 2004).]

[philstireservice]

The tools were available and offered. They were respectfully turned down.....but ahh ha then there were announcements looking for anyone in the paddock with certain measuring type tools........


sad sad......not handled well at all....

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Phil Phillips Integra GSR #4
www.philstireservice.com
Official Independent Amsoil Dealer for the ECHC
Distributor for FireCharger AFFF fire systems
Hoosier Tire Dealer

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by RSTPerformance:
Yes, it is annoying, but please remember that the SCCA is run with Volunteers...

As drivers we too should be volunteers to make this organization run. It is truly a sad state of affairs when we (drivers) expect volunteers to also supply thousands of dollars worth of tools... Then donate their time, the least we can do is donate a tool we are not using...


Raymond "Give some people a break, if they can not complete a protest because they don’t have the tools, then it is OUR (drivers) own fault... the volunteers were their to do the job" Blethen

Raymond- Trust me....the tools were brought and offered. Measuring tools and the tools to check the calibration of the measuring tools. As were a bevy of stock parts for comparision. But they were rejected, and for a perfectly good reason. Conflict of interest. Would you ask a fox to guard the eggs in the hen house? Of course not.

Now before you point out how ridiculous it would be to think that someone would make up a burette or micrometer that would read incorrectly in an attempt to fool the officials into thinking a perfectly legal car was illegal, I have a story for you.

In the late 80's or early 90's, there was a well documented case of an autocrosser being protested for an illegal final drive in the stock class. He produced a letter from Honda of America showing that dealers were authorized to replace the final drive with a higher one if the customer complained of lack of power in towing situations.

The SCCA officials thought it was odd. Honda NEVER issues such letters, and who tows stuff with a CRX!? Sure enough, the letter was a well crafted forgery.

So, the system is correct in refusing to use measuring devices provided by the protester.

That said, there are no requirements that the host region must supply a teardown tool kit. However, there are requirements that reasonable protests be carried out in a reasonable and agreed upon fashion.

In the end the tool kit was inadequate.

(And while I prefer not to get into the specifics, in my estimation, and as part of the protests design, the tools required were communicated to the officials Friday afternoon, and were common and generic.)



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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[RSTPerformance]

Fair enough opinion... I think it would be easier for someone to Volunteer to be a tech person and just read the gauge wrong...
Raymond "have you helped tech lately?" Blethen
PS: Jake no digs towards you, you do volunteer a lot, just letting others know they should appreciate the work that it done, I wanted to remind everyone these are volunteers.


[This message has been edited by RSTPerformance (edited October 04, 2004).]

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by RSTPerformance:
Fair enough opinion... I think it would be easier for someone to Volunteer to be a tech person and just read the gauge wrong...
Raymond "have you helped tech lately?" Blethen
[This message has been edited by RSTPerformance (edited October 04, 2004).]

Raymond- I understand your point, and it is a good one, but I need to make sure that we understand the actual facts of the situation.

First, it's not my opinion that the protester can not provide any tools, it is part of the SCCA rules and protocol.

Second, anyone involved with submitting the protest was expressly forbidden from anywhere near the area of the teardown. That is to say, no observation, no hanging around, and certainly no "assistance". The persons doing the actual measurement and decision making were, I am told, trained, "certified", and hold either tech or steward grade credentials issued by the SCCA in protest and teardown procedures, measurement techniques and rules interpretation.

In other words, any volunteers should not be allowed to be involved.

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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[This message has been edited by lateapex911 (edited October 05, 2004).]

[racerdrew43]

Having not been there, I have no right to comment, but I do have a question. What do they do at the Run-Offs? Shouldn't a similar procedure be available for these situations? It seems that the ITA guys had there act together when they posted. On an occassion when I discussed a potential protests with the stewards(they knew who I was talking about before I said anything), they made me very aware of how difficult it would be to carry out the action. They strongly encouraged me to get lots of support from the other entrants in the class. It sounds like the ITA guys had all the peices (parts, specs, cash, and a strong consensus)
Someone did the homework.