Who won ? A B C S

[ITSRX7]

[This message has been edited by ITSRX7 (edited August 08, 2004).]

[RSTPerformance]

Jake-

Thanks for the clarification

Explanation does a lot, your off my hook

Raymond "video doesn't always capture the truth" Blethen

[Greg Amy]

Looks like I need to be buyin' me one of them thar HondAcuras...them's the only cars on the lead lap in ITA...

[ITSRX7]

Serra's is for sale in the classifieds section...bet its cheap!

AB

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Andy Bettencourt
ITS RX-7 & Spec Miata 1.6 (ITA project)
New England Region R188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com

[Tkczecheredflag]

Originally posted by Rabbit05:
ITC honors went to Tim Klavana...I had a real fun time picking my way through the field trying to chase him down. I was pushing hard all race and had the Rabbit "hopping" all over..I got into some dirt on the outside of turn 2 after getting the lead, and that ended my race. I just tried to put in some good times at the end as Tim had a huge lead and the laps were running out. I managed to finsh second and third went to Fred...See ya in Oct. for the Runoffs....

John VanDenburgh
ITC Rabbit 05

John - You looked amazing yesterday. I was hoping to have more time to race with you. I beleive you got caught in fluids as well as debris in Turn Two. After I came through (and thank you for rolling back off the track and not on to it), I was also very loose in two and three. Your car was really hooked up in the back through West Bend. Congrats on yet another track record, you are almost in the 4's amazing for a "C" car. I'll look foward to racing you in October. Fred I thought you and I were going to have a go at it yesterday, I know you had to use some avoidence maneuvers to keep your car in one piece, see you next race.
I too have been noticing some pretty poor driving the last two events. At NHIS I had the same "A" car spin three times in front of me. I wish I had seen what happened to Grant in Turn Two yesterday, but I was busy missing the mess. Grant and I go back to the days of flagging corners - he is a good racer and a gentlemen. Sorry I didn't have my camera going for this race. I think it's pretty bad when new drivers are driving over their heads when they should be learning how to control the car and build in speed. There are a couple of Honda CRX's and a Honda Prelude that fall into this category, nice looking CRX'S, marginal drivers at best. I was brought into this sport thinking we do this for fun, race hard but clean, bench race afterwards over a cold drink, and live to fight another day. Did I miss the change in philosphy somewhere along the way???? I still feel the "C" drivers are livng to that creed.
Tim Klvana
ITC #11
2002 NERRC Champion
2003 NARRC Champion



[This message has been edited by Tkczecheredflag (edited August 08, 2004).]

[Nick Leverone]

The track was very fast this weekend, cool air temperatures and the sun kept the track warm. I have a question, if Shane did set a new record by how much under the existing. I feel the track was a good two to three tenth's quicker than I have ever driven it as evidence by my time.

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Nick Leverone
04 ITS Mazda Rx-7
www.flatout-motorsports.com

[gran racing]

Jake and Grant were doing just fine racing hard against each other as all of us would do if a beer were at stake! There was plenty of room for both of them through big bend until Grant received a “little help” to lose control. So no punting by Jake. The incident was extremely unfortunate and could have been much, much worse. He was sitting in the middle of big bend as traffic approached. What a horrible feeling! After all was said and done, Grant’s car certainly was not in the best of shape but fortunately he wasn’t hurt.

Hopefully he’ll be able to salvage the car and join us again soon. Jake and I always enjoy racing against Grant and his other RX7 compadres. I personally push it a bit more against the RX7s and Jake because I know we both respect each other and have built up trust that none of us will do anything foolish. Looking forward to seeing you out there Dick on Oct.

The ITB race was definitely the most fun to watch. Watching you guys from the hill was pretty amazing. Nice racing! And mid 1:04s? Wow. And I thought low 1:05s was crazy fast.


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Dave Gran
NER #13 ITA
'87 Honda Prelude

[dyoungre]

Anthony,
Based on the location of the chop, I believe that must have been me. If so I sincerely apologize, as I'm sure I misjudged your closing rate. Please email me directly at dyoungre_at_optonline_dot_net. I did not realize I had created such a dangerous situation; had I know I would have come by your paddock to apologize.

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Dave Youngren
NER ITA RX7 #61

[jwsbmw325]

Nick - congrats to you on the 1.00.08. You were flying for sure. Anthony S - I agree with you on there being some bad manners or lack of clue out there - as evidenced in our ITS race with a mid-packer taking Nick out on his way to a podium bid for sure. I myself got caught up in the mess, as a bunch of guys were all over the place, one nearly taking me out as I was forced to go around him on the outside up the hill and more just making a NJ Trunpike style mess is several turns. I'm not asking for everyone to pull off line and point us by, but when any front runner is coming back through, it would help not to drag-race into the corners and chop at the apex. Drive your line, but try not to make the guy coming back through do a hari kari style maneuver to get around you......

[Tkczecheredflag]

Originally posted by dyoungre:
Anthony,
Based on the location of the chop, I believe that must have been me. If so I sincerely apologize, as I'm sure I misjudged your closing rate. Please email me directly at dyoungre_at_optonline_dot_net. I did not realize I had created such a dangerous situation; had I know I would have come by your paddock to apologize.

Dave - I think it was me you chopped in
T-7. I posted at the "Looking for Red Rx - 7" Topic. Correct me if I am wrong about this I know you were struggling as sparks were flying from under the car. [email protected]
Tim Klvana
ITC #11
2002 NERRC Champion
2003 NARRC Champion

[Jake]

I don't want to start anything here (and I'm not talking about anyone in particular) - but I have 2 observations.

1- If someone has a problem with someone else's driving, I'd suggest taking the time to talk to that person directly after the race. (and not airing dirty laundry here) It gives that person the benefit of the doubt and a chance to improve. For instance, on Friday someone almost took me out doing a silly bonzai maneuver in qualifying, but I chose to talk to them about it in person instead of telling everyone else what a jerk they were.

2- What I was taught was to stay on line and it is up to the person passing to go off line and make the pass cleanly. I generally will brake early or accelerate a little slowly when I see Anthony coming so he has a safe place to make the pass, and we don't meet in an apex. And of course, if we do meet at an apex, I wouldn't squeeze him out. But I hope people aren't reading this thinking they should pull off line when a car is lapping. That can create a dangerous unpredictable situation. Since I lap people too, that would catch me by surprise.

[ITSRX7]

Jake couldn't be more right. The key things in his post are critical but subtle.

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">I generally will brake early or accelerate a little slowly when I see Anthony coming so he has a safe place to make the pass, and we don't meet in an apex. And of course, if we do meet at an apex, I wouldn't squeeze him out.</font>

This is what makes for a safe, predictable situation. Understanding that you are being overtaken, making adjustments so that two cars don't meet at a critical juncture, and leaving racing room.

IMHO, too many people just "hold the line" with no other adjustments and bad things happen. Understanding that we aren't talking about cars racing for position.

AB

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Andy Bettencourt
ITS RX-7 & Spec Miata 1.6 (ITA project)
New England Region R188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com

[This message has been edited by ITSRX7 (edited August 09, 2004).]

[gran racing]

I also agree with Jake and do what I can to stay out of the way for the faster cars. Most of the time it can be done without interfering with either drivers race. Occasionally there isn’t much that could be done and a person may slow another car down a bit. But that is just a part of racing no matter what level we are talking about. And yes, I realize it can be frustrating! (I race with another club where my car is classed a bit differently and actually have the fun of being one of the leaders along with Jake)

The front runners also need to understand some other factors / perspectives as well. Many mid-to-back drivers simply do not have the same equipment be it Hoosiers (I for one use Kumos) or as good suspensions as some of the front runners. Some cars also have a limited performance potential compared to others. What this can mean is hitting that apex often becomes very important simply because the car would not be kept on the track otherwise or the car will be slowed to a point it would kill their race. PCAs and reclassifications hopefully will resolve some of the classing disparity.

Basically what I am saying is just because a person’s car might be able to hold a line at X speed does not mean that the other car can (having nothing to do with driver skill).

A person can’t correct something unless they are made aware that they are doing something that could be done differently. (And of course it should be done with respect)


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Dave Gran
NER #13 ITA
'87 Honda Prelude

[lewllewellyn]

I have received several E-mails in regards to the question of "staying on line". The best way I can answer this is from my own personal experience.

I attended a "practice day" at LRP a couple of weeks after my 2nd driver’s school and right before the Memorial Day weekend. The group of closed wheel cars was quite mixed from IMSA Camel Lights to GT1's and some showroom stock (like me).

When a Camel Light would blow by me, it shook the whole car and I about wet my pants. So, I did what I thought was the safest thing to do, I got out of their way.

The next lap, I received a "BLACK FLAG" and was told to report to the tower. When I got there, they asked "What the HELL are you doing?” To which I replied that I was getting out of their way. Then I was told very strongly, "Never do that again! You have to drive the line! That way, the overtaking car will "KNOW" where you are going to be!" It's their responsibility to safely pass you!

This agrees with the GCR which states something like, "It is the responsibility of the overtaking car to make a safe pass. The car being passed should not block the overtaking car" (I didn't get out the book, so don't expect it to be word for word, but that is the intent)

The only safe thing to do is to always drive the line. That way, any overtaking car will know where you are going to be! If there is contact, it would "probably" be the fault of the "overtaking car", not the slower car which is driving the line. In many cases that have ended up in a protest, I have seen both parties receive equal penalties for the contact.

I hope this answers some of your questions.

Lew Llewellyn

[Greg Amy]

I'm with you, Lew, from both an overtaking and overtaken position. Staying on the line and being PREDICTABLE is the best offense and defense.

GregA

[ITSRX7]

...except when 2 cars get to the corner at the same time. I think the situation concerning some is that some people are driving into cars that are 100% at their side. They are doing it under the 'must drive the line' syndrome.

2 cars side by side going into a corner means some adjustments have to be made by both in order for both to come out. It isn't always happening.

AB

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Andy Bettencourt
ITS RX-7 & Spec Miata 1.6 (ITA project)
New England Region R188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com

[lewllewellyn]

Originally posted by ITSRX7:
...except when 2 cars get to the corner at the same time. I think the situation concerning some is that some people are driving into cars that are 100% at their side. They are doing it under the 'must drive the line' syndrome.

2 cars side by side going into a corner means some adjustments have to be made by both in order for both to come out. It isn't always happening.

AB

You are absolutely right Andy! It seems like each one is taking the position that "they own the turn", when in fact both have the right to the turn. Adjustments must be made by both/all so that they both can go through the turn without contact!

In the ITB race last weekend, there was side-by-side racing with little or no contact most of the race. That proves that it can be done!

Lew

[Tkczecheredflag]

I little common sense goes a long way here. Two cars are coming into the uphill, one is going 85 mph and the other trying to muster up 50 mph. The corner worker at Station 7 is waving, not showing, waving the blue and yellow, do you want the slower car holding the line or would prefer they give up the apex and pointing the faster car in. The "race line" is alot bigger and interpetative than just hitting the marks. I know I have opened up and let faster "A" cars in at the very spot and got a thank you or a wave afterwards. Do you want to be out in the marbles at 85, not me.
I know what the GCR says, but read section Section 1.2.4 says it "should not be given a strained or tortured interpretation and shall be applied in a logical manner," and read 9.1.2 again a tell me what it says about the resposibility of the driver being overtaken, that's a two way street too. Not beat a dead horse but we supoosed to help each other in tight spots.
Tim Klvana
ITC #11

[Greg Amy]

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">...do you want the slower car holding the line or would prefer they give up the apex...?</font>

Tim, I'd prefer the former, but let's consider this from two perspectives:

First, a baseline for the discussion. Assume some amount of speed differential (let's use your 35 mph) to the car in front and you're both approaching the corner. Chances are you're going to arrive there at the same time, or damn close, but it's not a given. We're not talking about a situation where the trailing car can get door handle-to-door handle, we're talking about "Who's on first, What's on second, and I Dunno's on Third."

- OK, you're the faster, overtaking driver. You're coming up on someone else and you've got fractions of a second to decide what to do. Problem is, you don't KNOW what the other driver is going to do; thus, what are YOU going to do about it?

Remember, I'm sitting here typing this, with the luxury of time to think about it. These kind of decisions will have to be made in split seconds, without this luxury. Unless you've thought about this in advance, and planned what you're going to do about it, it's no longer instinctual and you're banking on a luxury you just ain't got. Oops, too late...!

The correct answer: you're going to PLAN that the driver in front of you is going to drive their line, plain and simple, and you as the overtaking driver are going to accomodate that expectation. If by some smile of fate you can get inside them before the corner, so much the better; but if not you know what to expect from the leading driver.

- OK, now you're the leading, slower driver. You look in your mirror and see the faster car coming up. You've got fractions of a second to decide what to do. Problem is, you don't KNOW what the other driver is going to do; thus, what are YOU going to do about it?

Correct answer: BE PREDICTABLE and drive your line, as that is what the overtaking driver is expecting you to do, and you're going to watch your mirrors. If by some smile of fate she can get inside of you before the corner, so much the better; but if not they know what to expect from you.

Now, let's look at the alternative: the slower, leading driver moves offline to "get out of the way." OK, move where? Which direction? Outside the line? Inside the line? Outside on left handers, inside on rights? Always to the left? Always to the right? What about double apexes? What about chicanes? What about wet slippery corners or dry corners with marbles? What about traffic: are you going left and the guy in front, right? What if you go different directions, do you compensate?

See where I'm going? At the very moment that the slower leading driver decides to drive offline - whether by courtesy, fear, or a sense of loathing - that driver BY DEFINITION becomes totally unpredictable to the trailing driver, and in most instances will not only become a hazard but will also ultimately slow down both cars. There is ZERO advantage to either parties in such unpredictability and any good driver will have the foresight and skillsets to "work the traffic" to everyone's benefit. The best drivers that have been commended for their ability to get through traffic have developed that craft based on the cooperation - by their predictability - of slower traffic. A good overtaking driver will plan on predictability and time their events to best take advantage of the traffic.

I'm sorry boys, but to claim otherwise reveals a distinct lack of racecraft.

Bottom line, use your best judgement but if you see me coming up on you, drive your line. By the same token, if you come up on me, expect ME to drive mine. Otherwise, we're gonna be doing the IT two-step...

Greg


[This message has been edited by grega (edited August 09, 2004).]

[gran racing]

A little common sense goes a long way of course; you can't always go by the book. Heck yeah, if I see Tom, Anthony or one of the other fast guys (ITC cars included) I have no problem taking the uphill a bit differently. (needed to clarify) As in possibly turn in a bit later allowing a pass before the hill.

Tim, it is probably a little more important for you and other ITC cars to hit the apex and not lose any speed (for example on the down hill) then some of the A cars. If you lose your momentum, it really hurts. From a "faster car's" perspective I should try to set up the turn and allow you to carry as much through the down hill as possible. Either pass before the turn or wait just a tiny bit and get the car right after the turn. Basically like you said - it takes both parties to be sensible.

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Dave Gran
NER #13 ITA
'87 Honda Prelude

[This message has been edited by gran racing (edited August 09, 2004).]