LRP 05/08/04

[RSTPerformance]

Sam-

That is awsome!!! by the end of the year maybe we will see 6 Audi's racing!!! They helped us sooo much when we started... Truly Steve and Pam Mcnary are two of the nicest SCCA members around. I have been hopping they would rejoin us for some time now...

I think that you need to move back and build an Audi also

Raymond

[BillW]

FYI: Race Grp 7 has 7 SSC, 27 SSM, and 23 SM (57 cars). So there will now be 2 run groups:

Grp 7 = SSM, SSB, and SSC
Grp 7A = SM

This does not include novices that may sign up after the school on Friday.

(This info is From Ed Paul via Ken P Email)

[Greg Amy]

Houston, we have a math problem...

I'm glad to see that the SOMs are being responsive! However, adding a race group to a time-limited, one-day event at LRP is not the optimal solution...

Can't we instead move the 13 FV cars into another group and give that group to the 7A cars?

Considering that each qually session is 20 minutes (with at least a 5-minute break in between) plus a maximum of a 20-minute race (with a 5-minute break in between) and a one hour lunch for workers, that's 8.5 hours. We only have the track for 9 hours (9AM-6PM). That gives us 30 minutes of "what if" time. That's really not enough "what if" time, considering there will always be sessions that require more than 5 minutes for cleanup and towing in...

We're cutting these one-day LRP events too close. We must combine and reduce the group count rather than adding them. The alternative is to make them Restricted Regionals and allowing only entries from Regional-Only classes...we deserve as much track time too...

Greg

[SamITC85]

Originally posted by RSTPerformance:
Sam-

That is awsome!!! by the end of the year maybe we will see 6 Audi's racing!!! They helped us sooo much when we started... Truly Steve and Pam Mcnary are two of the nicest SCCA members around. I have been hopping they would rejoin us for some time now...

I think that you need to move back and build an Audi also

Raymond

I think I'll pass on the Audi's right now. Something about the sound of a 5 cylinder that makes me cringe Actually I am building a prod Scirocco right now so no IT cars fro me for now, though I stil have the green car in storage back east.

------------------
Sam Rolfe
TBR Motorsports
#85 ITC VW Rabbit
#85 GP Scirocco

[supersmile]

Raymond,

Just a note from a FV driver - look at the times from the Aug. 9 '93 regional:

FC - :53
FF - :56
FV - 1:03
and
ITS - 1:02
ITB - 1:05
ITA - 1:03
GT1 - :56

I'm guessing that you guys probably wouldn't want to mix GT1 and ITB, and yet your suggestion is that its OK for the same differential between FV and FC. There is a safety factor that needs to be considered here, especially in cars without fenders or doors the potential is there for a lot of hurt if a FV and a FC tangle. Not to mention the speed differential they have over us in the turns.

I think the only answer is for us all to play nice out there and keep the day running smoothly.


Rob
FV #5

Originally posted by RSTPerformance:
Greg-

I thought that FV and FA was a very bad combo, and doubted that anyone would consider putting them together... However, I looked at the results from last years Liberty Regional and was very suprised at what I found.

Looks to me like their would certainly be more traffic to wonder through for the faster Formula cars, but it was a lot closer than I expected... Their is a greater gap between several of the cars in the ITS/ITB field, and I think that if we can do it they also should be able to!!!

Lime Rock lap Times, Liberty Regional 2003-

FV Lap Times: 1:03's
FF Lap Times: 56's
FC Lap Times: 55's
FA Lap Times: no cars

Raymond

[RSTPerformance]

Last year (I think it was last year) we (IT had the oportunity to be classed with ITE... 56's - 58's and ITB was 1:05's - 1:07's.

Yes thats right ITE and ITB... We complained a lot but we ended up having a great race, it can be done. I wouldn't mind being with GT (big bore) either, IF the majority of them could drive, unfortunatly my ITB car seems to be faster than 80% of the big bore cars at a regional event in the turns.

On the other side, If I had a GT car I would love racing against ITB cars... "hey look how many people I beat in the race!!!" Actually in reality I love working my way through traffic so I think I would find it enjoyable (for the most part with a few exeptions for the unaware people).

Open wheel/closed wheel doesn't matter much as far as safety IMO both groups should be able to race without making contact.

While I do not expect the idea to go through I do think it could work.

Raymond

[supersmile]

Well, I can't imagine it would be much fun for the FC guys when they caught us in the corners. Those wings help them considerably.

You're right, we should be able to have no contact; my point is that if open wheel cars touch wheels someone is going for a very scary ride/flight. There's much more of a chance of that happening with higher overtaking speeds.

Rob

[RSTPerformance]

Rob-

Good points... agreed

Their are always so many different ways to look at a problem...

The truth is their is going to continue to be a problem... but the problem is one that we want... I know I want to see more ITB cars, its so much more fun with more people to race!!!

Raymond

[moto62]

Originally posted by BillW:
FYI: Race Grp 7 has 7 SSC, 27 SSM, and 23 SM (57 cars). So there will now be 2 run groups:

Grp 7 = SSM, SSB, and SSC
Grp 7A = SM

This does not include novices that may sign up after the school on Friday.

(This info is From Ed Paul via Ken P Email)

This is pretty much what we would expect. Now we have 9 run groups. If all goes well, we'll get a ten minute qualifying in the AM, race one will go off at around 11:30, lunch, then the other 8 groups will use the other 5 hours. This can be done with 15 lap or 30mins, whichever comes first, races and have time to spare providing there arn't too many race delays but this is lime rock and we all know how that goes. The later races may end up being only 12 laps(that's $18.90 per race lap.Sheesh). Good luck to all the students tomorrow. Y'all should be sleeping by now. It's 1:38 in the morning so y'all won't see this until after but good luck anyway and we'll see y'all tomorrow night.(Tonight actually )
Ray F. Boombalatti

[Greg Amy]

Post-mortem from a competitor's perspective:

Well, we kinda sorta pulled it off. With a couple of notable exceptions (see following) all sessions happened.

However, the exceptions. First I felt a sense of dread as I watched an open-wheeler cream the downhill wall early in the day. I watched as our 30-minute float melted away as they extracted him and fixed the wall. Unfortunately, the 20-minutes-per race time constraints burned the ITA group, who only got in three flying laps before getting caught behind the pace car. That group finished 15 minutes later, still behind the pace car, so they got all of three race laps. Also, the ITS race was shortened (admittedly, self-assisted) because of carnage all over the track; seeing a lot of cars strewn about, being attended to by workers, the stewards chose to "Black Flag All" and checker at 5:55 PM.

Fortunately, while we had oversubscribed Group 8, no-shows and a couple of dropouts allowed everyone to play, AFAIK.

So, it came off, but not without a hitch. IMO, we got lucky to make the day with 5 minuts to spare. I was very unhappy watching the sacred cow Formula Vees toodling around the track with 17 total cars and the SM group with less than 15, while the majority of the rest of the world was cram-packed with up to 40 cars on the track with multiple classes. ITA got screwed, ITS/ITB screwed themselves, and everyone got, at most, 40 minutes of total track time on the day; most got less.

I revert back to my prior post for suggested regroupings. I realize that my suggestions were too late to merit consideration, but I ask that for future events the open-wheel contingent get dropped to two groups, and the rest of theclasses get moved around to minimize the total number of groups and maximize time for everyone.

And before you start screaming about "safety", take a look at the lap times from the ITS/ITB session. I'm a slow-ass ITS driver, and I was flying by some ITB cars much faster that an FC will go by an FV. Sorry, but we all have to compromise for the betterment of all.

Besides, would you be pulling out the "safety" trump card if it wasn't affecting your group...?

GA

[dickita15]

this is said about half tounge in cheek.
change rules to read. qualifying in minutes and race in length shall be .5 times number of cars in race group. if a race group has 15 cars they get a 8 lap race. if you have 40 cars you get a 20 lap race. if a driver wants more track time it is in his best interest to encourage grouping that put more cars in his group.
dick

[supersmile]

Grega,

However, the exceptions. First I felt a sense of dread as I watched an open-wheeler cream the downhill wall early in the day.

I felt a sense of dread, too. Like, is the driver OK? Funny, I think that when the sedans crash hard, too.

I watched as our 30-minute float melted away as they extracted him and fixed the wall.


I appreciate your obvious concern for his well being. I wish I'd have kept track of all the time other race groups, IT especially, have torn up each other and/or the track and messed up the sacred schedule. (Hmm, what about that time at NHIS when three IT cars creamed each other leaving turn 12 during a WARM-UP and left us sitting there for 45 minutes or so?)

Unfortunately, the 20-minutes-per race time constraints burned the ITA group, who only got in three flying laps before getting caught behind the pace car. That group finished 15 minutes later, still behind the pace car, so they got all of three race laps.


My educated guess on that is that the course went to double yellow because of an on-track incident, no? Why is that the problem of other groups? We've all had races messed up because of crashes, it happens, get over it.

Also, the ITS race was shortened (admittedly, self-assisted) because of carnage all over the track; seeing a lot of cars strewn about, being attended to by workers, the stewards chose to "Black Flag All" and checker at 5:55 PM.


Your parenthetical statement makes my case.


So, it came off, but not without a hitch. IMO, we got lucky to make the day with 5 minuts to spare. I was very unhappy watching the sacred cow Formula Vees toodling around the track with 17 total cars


Those sacred cow FVs have been one of the top 3 subscribed race groups for around 40 years.

and the SM group with less than 15, while the majority of the rest of the world was cram-packed with up to 40 cars on the track with multiple classes. ITA got screwed, ITS/ITB screwed themselves, and everyone got, at most, 40 minutes of total track time on the day; most got less.

I revert back to my prior post for suggested regroupings. I realize that my suggestions were too late to merit consideration, but I ask that for future events the open-wheel contingent get dropped to two groups, and the rest of theclasses get moved around to minimize the total number of groups and maximize time for everyone.


Time for everyone, or time for Grega?

And before you start screaming about "safety", take a look at the lap times from the ITS/ITB session. I'm a slow-ass ITS driver, and I was flying by some ITB cars much faster that an FC will go by an FV. Sorry, but we all have to compromise for the betterment of all.


I don't know what the lap times were yesterday, but I'll repeat that open wheel cars have a safety concern not present in sedans. I spoke to several FC and FA drivers yesterday and all were clear that they don't feel any safer sharing the track with Vees than we do with them.

I would hope that SCCA, a club that places safety higher than anything, will not be so hypocritical as to require harness changes every 2 years and yet mix race grouping that are hazardous just to accomodate your wishes. That means paying attention to both speed differentials, car weights, and car types. And I would feel the same if I drove an IT car.

Besides, would you be pulling out the "safety" trump card if it wasn't affecting your group...?


I could pull out the "fun" factor and the "sporting" factor or even the "fairness" factor but I'm sure from your tone you wouldn't care anyway.

[Greg Amy]

Look, "supersmile", I'd love to take your baiting (and be offended), but for the most part I'll let it go because you make me laugh. However, some of your insinuations are out of line.

First, the FC/FA driver that managed to punt the wall in the downhill did so right in front of me. I watched him step out of the car. I had no concerns for his safety because he was obviously fine. Further, he did it near the end of the session, affecting the schedule for the entire event, not just his race group, unlike what happened to race Group 2.

Second, there's no need to "keep track" of the fairness of the amount of track time, because it was virtually the same for everyone: 20 minutes of qualifying and 20 minutes of racing (or 15 laps, whichever came first.) Thus, any reduction in the number of race groups will allow the schedule to be more flexible and allow all groups to expand proportionally so everyone gets more time. Yes, even me.

Third, there's no reason for you to have "fun" concerns, because every group got its due amount of time (as I so succinctly pointed out.) However, some groups had no traffic, thus no one to race with, while others had a significant amount of competition (the "point" of racing, I think).

Finally, while I'm sure your concerns are much more altruistic than the self-serving fact that you are a member of the smallest-subscribed group during the day (with the noted exception of the SM group that had to be pared from a 50+-car Spec Miata field), it's very hard to overlook that your 40-year-old class has significantly more opportunities for competition than most of the classes at yesterday's Regional event (such as the opportunity to enter National events and let's not forget the illustrious SCCA Runoffs). Despite the fact that your group encompassed less than 6.5% of the total entries for the day, you took up over 11% of the day's total track time. So, let's go a little light on the "fun" and "fairness" arguments, because you will get little empathy from the folks around you that were forced into a compacted, tight, schedule due to the number of race groups.

Most importantly, your cloak of safety concerns about open wheel cars is moot; if I asked the ITB and ITS guys about how THEY felt about being on the track at the same time as each other, I'm quite sure the results would at least match yours percentage-wise (but would wholly outnumber you in responses). Besides, if first-time driving students can do it (as they did in the two schools I've been to this year) then I'm reasonably confident that a driver of your caliber is capable of it as well. Big assumption, I know, but I have faith in your prior instructor's signoffs. If you disagree with this, please let the Division's Chief Instructor know.

Enjoy your trolling.

GregA

[This message has been edited by grega (edited May 09, 2004).]

[supersmile]

Greg,

First off, I'm not here trolling and certainly not trying to bait you. Racing is racing, and I check out forums for many classes besides my own because unfortunately there is no central forum where all information for local events can be found. I look mostly in the Northeast forums so i can learn about what's happening in my area. I've been a member of this forum in particular for many years.

You are correct, at least one of my assertions is incorrect. I assumed you were talking about the FV driver who ended up wrong side down by the bridge, not the FC driver (who I didn't know had crashed). So I respectably withdraw any insinuation that you may have been less concerned with the driver than the schedule <G>.

Please note that when I say fairness, I don't really directly mean track time (nor did I keep track of it this weekend). I mean that anyone in our club who attends a race should have equal access to track time, regardless of how well subscribed a group is. Because there were only three ITC cars, should they have been sent home because their group was big? I would say no. I also never complained about the tight schedule; its how a one day event at Lime Rock is. My comments were directed at the suggestion that my race group be removed to allow more room for other cars.

As for fun, in spite of having a smaller race grouping, I spent every lap in a two to 5 car train, so the size of the group doesn't necessarily dictate who's racing and who's lapping.

Finally, while my class can indeed run Nationals, you can run enduros, you can run with NASA, and you can go to ARRC. We can't. And I don't want to be rude, but when you chose to run IT you knew it wasn't a National class.

This argument of ours has probably started to bore anyone who's still reading this thread <G>. If you're at Pocono stop by and say hi and I'll buy you a beer at the party.

[ITSRX7]

Originally posted by supersmile:
This argument of ours has probably started to bore anyone who's still reading this thread <G>.

Not me!

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
06 ITS RX-7
FlatOut Motorsports
New England Region
www.flatout-motorsports.com

[gran racing]

From what I read, I never heard anything about doing away with FV's race time, just combining it with another class. Yeah, it was a bit frustrating watching a small group of cars run around after only getting 3 hot laps. But can you blame me? It isn't anything against FV either, just how it was grouped and circumstances. Too bad they couldn't have black flagged the group and given us a few more hot lapes. But understand the tight schedule and things happen. It is tough for anyone to pay $225 and spend that much time and effort for a few laps. I'm just glad that everyone was o.k. and we had a safe weekend though.

As for ITC, they were running with ITA so that is kind of a mute point.



------------------
Dave Gran
NER #13 ITA
'87 Honda Prelude

[bg43wex]

Greg,
this passive agressive behavior must end. you had your oppertunity at the track to speak with every availible NER official and voice your thoughts on time line , groupings and schedule.

Did you?

I was the reason the ITA race was ruined, I lost a tire in west bend flat out in 4th gear. I have been told by some observers that they had not seen a wreck there like that in a very long time.

I'm OK thanx for asking..

bitching on this forum may make you feel better but it won't solve any issues, bring it to the regional meetings.

thanx brian M



[This message has been edited by bg43wex (edited May 10, 2004).]

[RSTPerformance]

Brian-

I am glad that you are OK (and everyone else) and I hope knowone thinks that the race was ruined... accidents happen, we have to expect that... its part of racing.

Also as far as the schedule goes... Knowone has a right to complain about a 40 car field... It is a goal to fill the field isn't it? it is ok to offer suggestions just don't expect change unless you start "making things happen" IE: volunteering to help.

Raymond "trying to help" Blethen

[SamITC85]

Brian,
Glad to hear you are okay. How is the car? Total write off or will it be back together again this year? If you need a car I know of one that you could rent very cheap or some other arangement could be made
Sam

------------------
Sam Rolfe
TBR Motorsports
#85 ITC VW Rabbit
#85 GP Scirocco

[bg43wex]

I'm good Sam.

the car will go off to the body shop next week and will be ready for Pig Roast in July.

Brian

Rent ? I can't afford to rent I have a body shop bill coming