Any idea on Pre Reg for the April event at NHIS

[ITSRX7]

4 days overdue - any updates?

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
06 ITS RX-7
FlatOut Motorsports
New England Region
www.flatout-motorsports.com

[dickita15]

andy dude relax. it's not like we are going to sell out.
actually i just recieved the sanction numbers from 2peakA 2 hours ago and sent them to the registrar and webmaster. should be up soon. this is a very busy time for the comp board. divisional meetings, last minute tweeks to the supps, contracts with the tracks and brian is at sebring

dick

[ITSRX7]

I am with you Dickie-my-boy! I have over 10 people worried sick that they won't get into the school. I think the first school of the year being a Double is gonna rock!

AB

[dpc]

Dick, you are the man, 2peakA,that is cool. dave

[Blix]

Hey Dick,
Someone on the Spec Miata board posted that there was no mention of the 2 spec miata classes (SSM and SM)...will that be on there or should we just register as SM and sort it out at the track?

Eric
NER SM #12

[lateapex911]

I kow this isn't germain 2 the topic, but can anybody explain, logically, what and why these TWO Miata classes exist?
Is this a NE thing??

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[p99ro]

Well Jake you know that they have to keep up the class. After all I think know that Jeremy has gone back to ITA the SM group will drop you know.
Scott CRXsi 09 NER ITA

P.S. Jake were still on this weekend I`ll call you tomorrow.

[dickita15]

andy no problem just tell them you have clout and just mention your name.(g)
seriously, nhis does not sell out, but it is fun to torture newbies.

dave, thank you, thank you very much (done in elvis voice)

eric, ssm being added as we speak. so is cfc (club formula continetal if you care)

jake, explain yes, logicaly no, now it is not my intent to PO any miata insiders here, but at least JD can not edit me here. some of the SM guys were quite upset by the extra modification allowed in the gcr sm class. they felt they would have to spend a lot of money or be left behind. they proposed a ne div ssm class with the same basic rules as sm in the north east last year. it was accepted for 2 years. it is everyone's hope that after running the two classes for a couple of seasons people will relize it is not neccesary and ssm will go away. the funny thing is when i ask miata guys which class they are going to run they do not have a strong opinion on which will be best. think of it a security blanket for those fearful of change.

scott, I never know what the heck you are talking about
dick patullo

[This message has been edited by dickita15 (edited March 19, 2004).]

[7racing]

Originally posted by ITSRX7:
4 days overdue - any updates?

AB

Speaking of overdue, wasn't there a change to www.scca.org that was suppose to happen on March 1? Or did I hear that wrong?


Jeremy

[Blix]

OK, by way of QUICK explanation...if you feel like the long one, look it up on SpecMiata.com, ask Serge or dave Delgenio.

The national SM rules came out with open DOT legal tires. This was an issue, but regions were allowed to spec thier own. So that could have been worked around...until it becomes a national class, then we have an issue with spending more on tires in a season that it cost to build the car...bummer, but manageable. They also scewed with the weights, which the NE guys felt was unncecessary, but we could deal.

The real issue was that they didn't spec an intake or exhaust. This means that a built motor by Sunbelt or someone, will make 10-15 hp and a bunch of torque over a crate motor...BUT if you use the stock air box, and mazdacomp exhaust, you only gain a couple of hp. In the NE we tried to restrict it to this to keep the playing field level.

It comes down to, we want a really tight spec on the cars to keep them equal, while the national rules open up a fairly large can of worms for development. If it wanted that, id be racing in ITA.

Eric

NER SSM #12

[RSTPerformance]

Originally posted by Blix:
The national SM rules came out with open DOT legal tires. This was an issue, but regions were allowed to spec thier own. So that could have been worked around...until it becomes a national class, then we have an issue with spending more on tires in a season that it cost to build the car...bummer, but manageable. They also scewed with the weights, which the NE guys felt was unncecessary, but we could deal.

The real issue was that they didn't spec an intake or exhaust. This means that a built motor by Sunbelt or someone, will make 10-15 hp and a bunch of torque over a crate motor...BUT if you use the stock air box, and mazdacomp exhaust, you only gain a couple of hp. In the NE we tried to restrict it to this to keep the playing field level.

It comes down to, we want a really tight spec on the cars to keep them equal, while the national rules open up a fairly large can of worms for development. If it wanted that, id be racing in ITA.

Eric

NER SSM #12

In all honesty I completly disagree but I don't have a ton of knowledge about the cars and I admit that first and formost.

Tires can't cost more than the cars! those things are selling for outragious amounts of money! I still am shocked everytime I see one over $10,000!


I also beleive that a crate engine costs about $2000.00 and I have heard that the fast guys did buy them then dino them to find the fastest one so an engine actully costs quite a bit for a really fast one. By opening up the rules a bit it gives you the opportunity to make up for that without spending thousands on that perfect crate engine. Besides for $2000.00 you should be able to build a damn good engine with whatever legal mods you want!

I think that the 2 classes are a bit foolish but I think it is awesome that NER granted the SM drivers the opportunitty to run in both classes. Things like that keep moral up and membership up. It should be interesting to see how much faster those cars get with the mods!

Stephen

[Greg Amy]

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">I still am shocked everytime I see one over $10,000!</font>

You shouldn't be. Put the pencil to paper and add it all up:

- Car, $2000 MINIMUM unless you have a frame machine, body shop, and can buy a salvage.
- Hard top (ain't gonna get that with a $2K car), $850-1000
- Rollcage, $1500-2000
- Race seat, $250 minimum
- Harnesses, $100
- Fire bottle, $100
- Rollcage padding, $50
- suspension kit, $1200
- Spec Exhaust, gaskets, hangers, $250 shipped)
- LSD (ain't gonna get that on a $2K car), $600
- K&N air filter, $45
- Braided brake lines, $90
- Hawk pads, $200
- Wheels (4), ~$500
- Tires (4), ~$500

That's $8500 or so, not including any time, labor expenses, decals, shipping of all your parts, and a lot of little details that go into building a race car. We now have a have a $2K beater race car, with a beater 100+ K engine (add that $2000 for a crate engine!) that hasn't even gotten all its fluids flushed and changed out, the stock radiator is still in it (which appears to be inadequate), beater 100K suspension and brakes, and that old 100K timing belt and all those old gaskets in there leaking out all over our driveway.

And THAT'S only if you do ALL the work yourself!!! Just go ahead and total up the hours involved in building one of these cars, multiple it by two ('cause it always takes twice as long as you thought!) and multiply that by a minimum of $45 per hour. And add $100 "just 'cause".

So, you see, $10K for a car with all those parts ain't such bad deal after all...

We're building two of these cars now, a 1.6 and a 1.8 (double your purchase price for that one), and I promise you that if we could get one in good condition for $10K we'd snatch it up. A lot of folks think this is a "cheap" class to build, but when you think about it - REALLY think about it - it's kinda hard to be "cheap" in any kind of racing.

GA

[ITSRX7]

Greg is right on the money. We just build 2 this year as well and I would say that they cost about $12K out the door IF you have a good solid motor.

SM is one of THE most expensive classes to start out in. Why you ask? Because the rules don't allow you to do a slow build. They specify that you have to have all of the parts to be legal. You have to go the whole 9 to get in. These are easy builds, but you neeed a solid donor, the rare hardtop and all the parts.

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
06 ITS RX-7
FlatOut Motorsports
New England Region
www.flatout-motorsports.com

[dpc]

Having gone from ITA to SM,I can tell you it is a whole different world in SM. I have seen where SM has humbled some good drivers. You simply can not make a mistake, there is no room for error. You guys are right-on with your figures. So far I do like the class. I believe it will make me a better driver. dave

[ITSRX7]

Originally posted by dpc:
So far I do like the class. I believe it will make me a better driver. dave

I believe that 100%. I am lucky in that the current track record holders in ITS at NHIS have the same car I have. Knowing I put about the same power to the ground as them and have similar set-ups, I know it is driver right now for that last 3/4 of a second. When you are chasing the likes of Nick and Kip, every little mistake gets compounded. Track time baby!

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
06 ITS RX-7
FlatOut Motorsports
New England Region
www.flatout-motorsports.com

[83rx701]

Originally posted by dickita15:
andy dude relax. it's not like we are going to sell out.
actually i just recieved the sanction numbers from 2peakA 2 hours ago and sent them to the registrar and webmaster. should be up soon. this is a very busy time for the comp board. divisional meetings, last minute tweeks to the supps, contracts with the tracks and brian is at sebring

dick

Dick Can I get your e-mail address I have some questions about the school at NHIS. You can e-mail me at [email protected] Thanks
Lou I
NER ITA RX7#79

[RSTPerformance]

First I will clarify that I should have said a used SM. Just for fun... not for an argumetn I added in my reasoning why I think 10,000 is way to high.

Do not read any furhter if you are looking to argue. These are just my thoughts on why the prices do seem high to me. I still love the class and think it is a great class to run in and learn. you can't create a better environmnet to challenge yourself to grow than a spec class environment. I personally like the passing thing which is why I am less interested in spec classes.


- Car, $2000 MINIMUM unless you have a frame machine, body shop, and can buy a salvage.
- Hard top (ain't gonna get that with a $2K car), $850-1000 I have no idea to be honest. I thought they changed the rule to allow no tops?
- Rollcage, $1500-2000 shop around I would say 1000 at tops.
- Race seat, $250 minimum they get as low as $75-$100 for a great used seat
- Harnesses, $100 yup that's fair.
- Fire bottle, $100 I hope you have an entire system because just a bottle is about 25 bucks!
- Rollcage padding, $50 wow come to me in the future I can get it much cheaper.... unless you are covering the entire cage.
- suspension kit, $1200 1200 seems way to high I can't imagine that you would spend $400 per corner. Springs are 65 for the best ones, and shocks.... seriosly not $350 per corner... maybe 1/2 that.
- Spec Exhaust, gaskets, hangers, $250 shipped) No idea again.
- LSD (ain't gonna get that on a $2K car), $600 fair I would say.
- K&N air filter, $45 probably I guess.
- Braided brake lines, $90 I wouldn't do this unless I was hunting for tenths.
- Hawk pads, $200 I hope they are brand new never been used!
- Wheels (4), ~$500 4 wheels should cost around $250 tops still weighing in in the low 13lb range.
- Tires (4), ~$500 I hope they are brand new as well!

Remember to take everything and divide it in half since it is all used stuff and I've also never heard of anyone paying for labor when they purchased a used car. I still think that 8500 is a decent price for a USED SM but anything over 10000 you got taken unless it is all brand new top of the line stuff with everything you can ever think of done to the car.

I guess I just have a different point of view that I wouldn't sell anything that I raced for a few seasons and make a profit on it and I would shop around until I found something that someone wasn't just trying to make a profit on and screw me. A few people are building them and making a good living of of it. I should have been more clear and said that I was amazed that a used SM goes for more than $10,000. Obviously the people building brand new ones are out to make a few grand in profits and I don't blame them. Most SM guys/girls have the money and they are willing to pay to have it done right so they do buy new.

Stephen

[Greg Amy]

Wow, Stephen: 'Do not read any further unless you agree with me...'? Kinda lame, huh?

It's all a matter of what you're looking for. Can you buy a worn-out, tired, poorly-built Spec Miata so that you can go on the track and tell your girlfriend you're a real race car driver? I'm quite certain you can. You'd also be working on it constantly, not prepped and repairing things, and when you roll it off the trailer you'll be mid-pack at best.

But, can you buy a well-built Spec Miata that has a rat's ass chance of winning in one of the most competitive classes in SCCA for less than $10K? Highly doubtful. You can barely build one yourself for that price; what makes you think someone will build and sell you a competitive one for that?

Simple economics: I can build one for X, or I can buy one and not have to spend the time and effort to do it myself for about X minus a couple grand. You don't have to divide everything by half when you sell a Spec Miata: the price elasticity in this class isn't there, everything is spelled out for you. Unless I'm just into self-mutilation or I have tons of discretionary time and I ran out of interest in my TinkerToys and Lego, I'm going to buy the car already built.

And, someone that does not place value on their time when building a race car will likely end up with a car that's worth exactly that same value. Since most people who do reasonably good work put a value on their time, and they're selling their Spec Miata for less than the sum of the parts, one could hardly call that "making a profit." Hell, the opportunity cost of my time for building a Spec Miata is at least $7.50 per hour (isn't that what Freedom Fryers are getting now?)

Side note: professionally built "new" ones from a reputable Spec Miata source? Try $15K to START (hard to find, though), going upwards of $20-25K for one with a Sunbelt engine. Find one of those for $10K and that's a good barain. But you won't.

So why am I building two cars instead of buying one for $10,000? 'Cause there ain't any really good cars out there for $10,000. There are "cars out there for $10K" (maybe less), but not ones I want to spend $10K on.

Stephen, among other misunderstandings in your response, the Spec Miata suspension is "SPEC", as in "you must use these exact parts, this exact part number" and the kit from Mazda is exactly $1200. Period. There's no specific requirement that you buy the kit from Mazda, but I challenge you to source out the following parts for less than $1200:

- Four Bilstein Sport shocks (as used in the JDM Eunos)
- Four Eibach ERS 2.5" springs (6", 700F, 350R)
- The specified lower adjustable spring seat kits, all four corners (no clue for the source)
- Bump stop kits (Eibach?)
- Both front and rear Eibach swaybars

$1200 is a HELL of a bargain (I've easily got twice that just in SHOCKS on my ITS car). Don't forget that you have to pay shipping for all your own sourcing, whereas MazdaMotorsports will ship it all to you for $1. Of course there's that "time thing" again, with your having to research and deal with ordering all that stuff (Mazda gives us a web site for one-stop shopping, and the kit is a single part number), but we've already agreed our time has no value...

I suppose you could look around for used suspension parts to put on your Spec Miata, but Geezuz, man, how cheap-ass can someone possibly get? Besides, there just ain't a whole lot of these little rockets floating around being parted out...

Greg

P.S. I will not use a $25 Home Depot handheld fire extinguisher in any car I race. AT THE VERY LEAST I will buy a good-quality Halon handheld with a top-quality massive steel bracket (designed for a race car), if not a full extinguisher system. The thought of my head being endangered by the failure of a stamped steel mounting bracket intended for hanging on your kitchen wall makes me sick. Then, if I survive the torpedo flying around, now I have to bank on the performance of a 2.5 pound household dry chem doing the job of getting me out of there.

Uh, I don't think so...

[ITSRX7]

Again - Greg is 100% on. Th eother issue is supply vs. demand right now. We aren't starting with $500 RX-7's with blown motors here. It costs you $4000 in CAR ALONE - or you have to drop $2000 on a crate motor.

IT cars are worth less than half their build costs on the open market - unless they ARE THE CAR to HAVE.

Great class, cool cars and easy to build. 2-3 more years and you will see the prices drop - but to say if you paid over $10K you got taken - that is a lack of knowledge of the cars and current market.

AB

------------------
Andy Bettencourt
06 ITS RX-7
FlatOut Motorsports
New England Region
www.flatout-motorsports.com

[RSTPerformance]

First of all I wasn't saying that if you don't agree with don't read on all I was saying is that I hate all the pissing contests which is why I should never have posted in the first place because I am know one of "them". I am offended that I was open minded and telling you my point of view and you still are trying to pick a fight by assuming and infering something defferent than what i said.

So to sum up how I feel.... I completly agree with you guys that the cars cost a ton and that is mainly because it is Spec and because they are in High demand... Economics. Someone somewhere is making good money on these cars. That's all I was pointing out. Your right that because of those 2 things 10,000 is a good price for a well built SM. Originally all I was saying is that the tires will not cost more than the car and that if the rules would free up the cars will not be much more expensive. You guys helped me by pointing that at which was my point in the first place. I also said that FOR ME 10,000 was way to much. I am just out of college with lots of loans. you both are succesfull and can afford the luxuries of all new top of the line stuff. I think that we agree that that cars do cost a lot and honestly I think that it is OK for a class like this to be expensive. They started a pro series as well which makes this the perfect class for someone to get started in a racing career.

I am off for the week to Long Island so I hope you all have a great week. sorry I offended you all by saying tat a SM car could be built for less than 10,000 and I am sorry that I originally said I wouldn't spend 10000 on one of those cars. I like to be able to be creative and that is why IT attracts me more than spec classes.

Stephen