944 vs 944S

[Bpickettx]

I’ve done a lot of research on both models 944 and 944S, here’s what I found out;

944
Best engine builder in the country is Jon Milledge, he claims about 180hp, costs can be upwards of 10K. According to him, scca has the car too heavy (what else is new!) based on his calculations, he raced the ARRC years ago and was pulled by top SpeedSource (Sylvain Trembly) car on straights. Most of the hp gains made are in the head work he does. The engines come balanced, almost no gains by burning new chip.

944S
Exact same motor except for head. According to Milledge, this head is designed really well so you wont get the kind of gains in a 2v car. His rebuild S motor puts out 200-205 hp max. Draw backs to the 944S and why the potential is not the same as say a comparable ITS car like 4 valve BMW e36 are the following: The ECU doesn’t offer any major gains, not as programable older system, second, the cams can not be re-indexed because the timing belt goes to one cam only (exhaust) then a chain from the middle of the exhaust cam connects to the intake cam. (sprocket is welded to the cam). As in a BMW e36 they have a Vanos cam adjusting system and you can play with the cam timing by re-indexing each cam.

With the increased weight of an S, and the same brakes (944 and 944S use exact same caliper and rotor) there’s not much of a difference when you calculate power to weight.

Have spoken to 5 guys around the country who run 944S, (2 of the 5 what I consider maxed out to the IT rules) same response everytime: good car, fast but no broken track records, and pulled by e36’s on straights. Since they’ve been let into the class (944S) 3 years ago, I haven’t heard of any winning races and none show up at the ARRC.

Other comments???

B Pickett

[RR]

test

[RR]

Dear Pickett, I used to run in the NE, had a 944 with a Milledge motor. I won a lot of races, but this was before serious competition came to town(now the ITS guys run rings around my old lap times)!! I can agree with you on the ECU stuff, I trailered my car 8 hours to a special chip/dyno guy in PA, to gain a whopping 5hp for $450 bucks!! I've heard good things about the S, but not many wins. I just love the cars, i believe in proper trim they are competitve maybe not ARRC winners, but contenders. The cam stuff you mentioned I guess is true although I never attempted to change the cam timing. My concern with the S is the weight, 2850 is heavy. I had an e36 ITS car last year which is the same weight, and braking was really good, the power was fantastic. Comparing the e36 with the 944s, 944 brakes are a little smaller, and early 80's ECU technology..its going to be a challenge.

There is a guy up here Kip Van-something, heard he built an S. Will keep you posted how he does.

Russ J.

[timo944]

Thanks for this post. I have been debating getting an S to replace my aging 944, but I think after hearing comments here and elsewhere it's a waste of money.

I notice that moving 944 to ITA got nixed again, so maybe they'll lower the weight again to make it more competitive. I've had a hell of a time getting it to 2715 and keeping it raceable for PCA a the same time though.

[wpspeedracer]

I've devoted two years in running an S and all things considered....I have no regrets.
Here's how I look at it>
If you want to win..you are going to spend $$$ in anything...A top class RX-7 or a 325 is $30 k + to have a front running car..and I've seen 325's run in to the 40's.
As far as driveability, handling, and realibility it's hard to go wrong with a 944 . N/A or S...they are just so much fun to drive, and forgiving.
Secondly, with over 200,000 produced...E-bay is a great source for replacement parts which helps in overall maintanance.

Venu: with a 944, there are so many race venue's you can compete in that gets you onto any track - anywhere - with similar competition if you class your car right. Set it up for ITS at 2750 #'s with out your interior...then save all interior parts to go in easily for PBOC and PCA, you add about 75#'s in weight and now you are set for PCA at 2822#'s
Ive also started getting into longer races where the realiability of the 944 comes into play big....3 hour + enduro's. You can go over 2 hours on a tank of gas ( less pit stops ) your brakes never go away and can last a 12 hour, tire wear is even due to the weight distrubutition, etc. so as the race goes on, you slowly climb up teh ladder as everyone else droops out.

As far as times and performance, I think I have squeezed out as much hp as you can get without spending lots of $$$$. Good motor and head, good suspension, and good exhaust system has me 1 - 2 seconds /lap behind on short tracks ( Roebling 1:21 > 1:23 ) and 4 - 5 seconds off on long tracks ( Sebring 2:32 > 2:37 ) which i attribute a couple of seconds to driving ability alone because I have been going up against a driver, Kyle Rathbun, who is driving a stock - full interior - stock suspension - still has stock exhaust with the cat still on 87' 944 S and we are only a second apart because he just flat outdrives me....he's really shown me how good a 'good' driver really drives.

All in all, I am usually in the top ten in ITS and can be very competitive ( 1st - 3rd ) in PCA H class and PBOC R-7. I get the same prize money as the winning ITS guys at half the price and just as much fun.

Mark
#54 ITS

[GKR_17]

Originally posted by Bpickettx:
As in a BMW e36 they have a Vanos cam adjusting system and you can play with the cam timing by re-indexing each cam.

That is possible with the BMW, but not legal.

As for the 944S, I don't think we've seen even a glimpse of its capability. Those complaining about the computer surely haven't tried MOTEC, which unfortunatly is getting more common. Don't forget that the E36 was out for over 5 years before it won at the ARRC.

Grafton

[Geo]

Quite right. Reindexing the cams is absolutely illegal so the lack of ability to do so it a red herring.


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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[924Guy]

Geo and I've already talked about this, but I'm curious to see what other 44 guys are running on the suspension side - anyone feel willing to throw out some numbers/info? Spring rates, bars, dampers? I'm in ITB, don't even have to worry, so I'll throw it out there; started out (last 4 years) with a fairly normal 400#/30mm setup, but seems soft (judging by tire wear vs. temps). So I'm going stiffer now; turning it to 11! I've got 660# front springs (leftover from some other 924 Prod car), and am planning on 34mm rear bars to keep the balance. Still running stock 924 front bar (22mm I think?), with the 19mm adjustable rear cup car bar. 400/30 was balanced, and 660/34mm will be 65% stiffer and still balanced. Shocks will continue to be the Bilsteins, revalved.

So, anyone else car to share setup?

------------------
Vaughan Scott
Detroit Region #280052
'79 924 #77 ITB/GTS1
www.vaughanscott.com

[RR]

To answer questions regarding cam indexing. GCR clearly states in the rules, you can re-key or index cam shaft to compensate for milling head, its legal.

Second ECU. Im not sure what you mean by Motec, are you saying replace the ECU. According to GCR rules you cant replace the computer only alter it. I went through this with my 944, I didnt just go buy an off the shelf chip. I went to a custom chip maker, Milledge referred me to the guy. Let me say we spent hours on the dyno, interfaced with electronics measuring everything. Made 5 or 6 chips, I got 5 lousy HP. Trust me when I say, there is nothing to be gained here.

I really love these cars, and would/will build another one given the chance. I'm a walking manual when it comes to these cars, and know what they are capable of and not. Jon Millege Engineering in my opinion is the national expert, every one else either cheats or lies, and when he states gross hp one believe it.

[Bpickettx]

Is it Kip Van Steenberg, who built a 944S in your area? I dont know if his car will be a good representation of a legal ITS car. He has built 2 ITS cars one a black e36 that smoked everything in sight. Heard the car was caught for something, then sold and vanished. Other car was a RX7, ran in Northeast, broke all trake records, sold to local guy, now mysteriously much slower in hands of new owner.

The plot thickens.

[RR]

Vaughn Scott, where did you find rear torsion bars over 30mm. Paragon and weltmeister carry up to 30?

[GKR_17]

Originally posted by bmw#29:
To answer questions regarding cam indexing. GCR clearly states in the rules, you can re-key or index cam shaft to compensate for milling head, its legal.

If by compensate, you mean bring back to factory specs, then you are correct.

Cars with adjustable cam gears, like the E36, MUST be set at factory specs.

Reread the ECU rule, then read the threads on Motec on this site. You're way off on the computer rule.

Grafton

[Geo]

Originally posted by bmw#29:
To answer questions regarding cam indexing. GCR clearly states in the rules, you can re-key or index cam shaft to compensate for milling head, its legal.

Ah yes, but what you fail to mention is that is specifically mentions you can use an offset key on the the crankshaft only to return the cam timing to stock (italics mine). It's still possible to return the 944S cams to stock timing as I understand it. Using an offset key to reindex to other settings would not be legal as the rule is currently written.

Originally posted by bmw#29:
Second ECU. Im not sure what you mean by Motec, are you saying replace the ECU.

This is not quite right. You may replace the guts of the ECU as long as you use a stock ECU housing and stock connector. People are already using MoTeC ECUs installed inside the stock ECU housing and wired internally to the stock connector.


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[Geo]

Originally posted by bmw#29:
Vaughn Scott, where did you find rear torsion bars over 30mm. Paragon and weltmeister carry up to 30?

I bought mine from Paragon. Jason sells them for the same price as the hollow Weltmeisters. Probably higher quality too.


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[RR]

Sorry guys, my bad on the ECU rule. Didnt realize you can gut it,thought it was just new chip. will consult GCR. dont know anything about motec, but know its expensive. since scca is looking out for the underfunded, wife watching my bank account, why make a rule change that can cost bid dollars?

[timo944]

Suspension: I am still using the 28mm bars, but with 550lb springs. Not the ideal setup but I have other priorities.

Has anybody tried the Advance Design shocks? I bought some for $1600 last year, and I like them. The comparison basis is worn out Koni's tho, so would like to hear other opinons

Mark - Kyle is a hell of a driver. We paddocked w/ him at the Daytona event last year - great guy. That car is bone stock!

[Geo]

Originally posted by timo944:
Has anybody tried the Advance Design shocks? I bought some for $1600 last year, and I like them. The comparison basis is worn out Koni's tho, so would like to hear other opinons

I'd like to hear opinions as well. I am getting close to having to commit to my damper set-up and I've been debating the ADs and Koni 8611/8212 DA twin tubes. They are pretty much the same price. The trade-off is the ADs are gas and Koni's vast experience.


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[924Guy]

Correct, Jason can special-order the 34's. Reminds me (since I haven't ordered them yet) that I do need to call him and get that order going...

Timo - you're racing a 944 in ITS and you've other priorities than your suspension? Well, I hope those priorities are more fundamental (like build or safety), not power. OTOH, give it a year and we may have some improvements on suspension tuning for you to benefit from (not just the same crap everybody buys because it's what everybody else is running, suspension tuning by the lemming principle). IMHO, Bilsteins are hella bang for the buck if you can take the leap of faith to step away from the adjustables.

------------------
Vaughan Scott
Detroit Region #280052
'79 924 #77 ITB/GTS1
www.vaughanscott.com

[Andy Bettencourt]

Originally posted by Bpickettx:
Is it Kip Van Steenberg, who built a 944S in your area? I dont know if his car will be a good representation of a legal ITS car. He has built 2 ITS cars one a black e36 that smoked everything in sight. Heard the car was caught for something, then sold and vanished. Other car was a RX7, ran in Northeast, broke all trake records, sold to local guy, now mysteriously much slower in hands of new owner.

The plot thickens.

Easy. Unless you know, don't post stuff like this.

We ran against Kip in his E36 and his RX-7. He only owns ONE track record in the NE, we own the rest

The BMW was REAL fast AND maxed out. It was taken to the ARRC and disqualified (along with the top Bimmerworld car) in 2002 for a bogus ballast placement issue. The engine was DEEMED legal.

Kip's 944S will be representative of a top car with a top driver.

Sheesh.

AB

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Andy Bettencourt
New England Region, R188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com

[wpspeedracer]

The best modification/best return I found was to get air in and out of that 16 valve head...and the car wakes up like you wouldn't believe....start with headers...then finish with the right exhaust muffler ..the muffler alone will add 7 lbs of tourque ....I tested 5 mufflers on a dyno and found the right one....and it wasn't at all what I expected...side in - center out Flowmaster.
mark

[This message has been edited by wpspeedracer (edited February 27, 2005).]