944 Reclassification Proposal

Looking at these result from the Labor Day double at Summit, the 944 still looks fairly competitive to me.
http://www.wdcr-scca.org/results/results.c...ndex.htm?030801
If the E-36's were moved to another class, or received the biggest comp adjustments, seems like everyone would be on a fairly level field again. Might bring a lot of cars out of mothballs again for some decent sized fields in ITS again.
The only two drivers to win a race in ITS at Summit in the past 2 years have E-36's and seemingly unlimited budgets. Half the cars(Non-BMW) that used to win, or show at the majority of the races have either been sold or are sitting in the garages gathering dust.

[This message has been edited by 2Many Z's (edited March 15, 2004).]

[ITSRX7]

Some numbers I have for Built motors:

CRX: 125WHP
Intgra: 135WHP
944: 159WHP (using 15% loss @ 185 crank)
RX-7: 170WHP (128 ft/lb of pavement ripping tourque at 6000 RPM!)

YMMV

AB

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Andy Bettencourt
06 ITS RX-7
FlatOut Motorsports
New England Region #188967

[JLawton]

Although I do think the 944 is out classed in ITS, I also agree this isn't the only car with this problem. I was just speaking from my personal experiance. How many other engine builders out there can get what Jon does from his engines?? I don't know of ANY. And you also pay for that power, A LOT!!

How about if we make everyone happy and get rid of the BMWs??..........Just kidding.....maybe.........



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Jeff L
#74 ITB GTi

[Geo]

Originally posted by lateapex911:
Really....?
My understanding was the Integra had decent power in the 135 range, but better torque. At the wheels of course. Do you have info leading you to believe a number closer to 160?? At it's weight, that would be a staggering ovrdog.

I'd be surprised if a "built to the limit of the rules" Integra engine didn't make pretty close to the 944. The car came with 140bhp stock (vs. 145 for the 944). The Integra should be much more responsive to mods than the 944. One of the problems with comparing numbers with say a Milledge engine is you need to find an engine built to the same level. I doubt the numbers you're hearing are for an engine built to that level.


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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by Geo:
I'd be surprised if a "built to the limit of the rules" Integra engine didn't make pretty close to the 944. The car came with 140bhp stock (vs. 145 for the 944). The Integra should be much more responsive to mods than the 944. One of the problems with comparing numbers with say a Milledge engine is you need to find an engine built to the same level. I doubt the numbers you're hearing are for an engine built to that level.

Veeeeeeeery Interesting...

Andy, I'm sure you know where my 135 figure comes from...do you agree with George that there is that much more "left on the table"?

If that's true Geoge, ITA has a much larger latent problem, as 25 more hp at that weight will be a runaway winner.



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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[Greg Amy]

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">...do you agree with George that there is that much more \"left on the table\"?</font>

I also know where the number came from, and I *highly doubt* that person has left much on the table, if anything. He has the means, opportunity, and skills to do it properly to the limits, and he wouldn't have done the events he did (and to the distances he drove) with a half-assed engine rebuild.

Of course, he could be pulling our collective legs on the actual number, but regardless of the numerals the results speak for themselves. Incredibly successful, lots of opportunity, but in the end he still didn't beat the CRX, did he? Of course, more results will be availble in a few weeks...

Nope, George, I'm with Jake and Andy on this one: I'll bet a dollar to a donut there's not much more to be had from the ITA Integra engine.

P.S. Hey, why don't you and Carey take a vacation, come up here and stay with us, and see (or participate in) some Regionals in the Northeast? I honestly think your perspective will change...

[Greg Amy]

(deleted duplicate post...)

[This message has been edited by grega (edited March 15, 2004).]

[Geo]

Originally posted by grega:
I also know where the number came from, and I *highly doubt* that person has left much on the table, if anything. He has the means, opportunity, and skills to do it properly to the limits, and he wouldn't have done the events he did (and to the distances he drove) with a half-assed engine rebuild.

Of course, he could be pulling our collective legs on the actual number, but regardless of the numerals the results speak for themselves. Incredibly successful, lots of opportunity, but in the end he still didn't beat the CRX, did he? Of course, more results will be availble in a few weeks...

Nope, George, I'm with Jake and Andy on this one: I'll bet a dollar to a donut there's not much more to be had from the ITA Integra engine.

P.S. Hey, why don't you and Carey take a vacation, come up here and stay with us, and see (or participate in) some Regionals in the Northeast? I honestly think your perspective will change...

Well, here is where I'm coming from.....

Lots of people say they have left nothing on the table, yet builders like Milledge, Sunbelt, and other similar truly professional shops seem to regularly get more than even excellent builders can get. Nobody, and I mean nobody seems to be able to evenc come close to Milledge's numbers for a 944.

So, what do you say that if that Integra engine wasn't build by someone like Milledge or Sunbelt we compare it to a top engine not built by Milledge?

Furthermore, let's go back to the 240SX example.... The single cam 240SX is nearly the same spec (look them up) as the 8v 944 and yet is in ITA at a weight lower than the 944 in ITS.

If the SOHC 240SX is an ITA car, so is the 8v 944, especially when you consider the 944S being in ITS.

As for a vacation, thanks for the offer Greg. We won't be able to this year (I'm changing jobs and we are hoping to go to Australia at the end of this year), but I'm already thinking about possible vacations next year and the northeast is a real possibility.


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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com


[This message has been edited by Geo (edited March 15, 2004).]

[cherokee]

I don't think that the 944 is the problem, just like I don't think the RX-7 is the problem. The problem is in the ITA & ITS classes. Why don't we see these kind of debates for the B & C classes?...Because as someone once said they are frozen in time. Every dog in the pound knows what those old cars are going to get with the mods they are to use. The newer cars (computer cars) we all know that just by playing with the computers you can move the curve all over the place, the problem is that you don't know how high the curve will go. Car X responds well to ECU mods Car Y does not. And until you get someone out there running one you will not know. The BMW needs to be slowed down, the CRX needs to be slowed down, do that and everyone will be happy....until the next new car comes along. Honda and BMW drivers will not like it, but the only other option is to re-make the classes...and that ain't gonna happen.
Open computer cars are new to IT, you are going to need new rules to regulate them.

[ITSRX7]

Originally posted by lateapex911:
Veeeeeeeery Interesting...

Andy, I'm sure you know where my 135 figure comes from...do you agree with George that there is that much more "left on the table"?

Nope, I don't agree. That motor + that level of prep + that driver equals the fastest lap of the ITA race at the 2003 ARRC...not to mention that I believe that engine builder has engines in cars that hold the track record in ITA at LRP and NHIS. (Tom B. can verify)

The CRX does not stick out like a sore thumb in ITA. The 240SX and Integra are equal when developed and driven well - and the Miata IMHO will be right there soon.

AB

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Andy Bettencourt
06 ITS RX-7
FlatOut Motorsports
New England Region www.flatout-motorsports.com

[cherokee]

Originally posted by ITSRX7:

The CRX does not stick out like a sore thumb in ITA. The 240SX and Integra are equal when developed and driven well - and the Miata IMHO will be right there soon.

AB

I agree to a point , but the reason for bringing up this move is the same as it is for the 7. Put one car of every make in the field and both 944 and RX-7 would be a top 5-10 car. Yes there is a problem but the overdogs is the problem, not all the other cars behind it.

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by cherokee:
Car X responds well to ECU mods Car Y does not. And until you get someone out there running one you will not know. The BMW needs to be slowed down, the CRX needs to be slowed down, do that and everyone will be happy....
Open computer cars are new to IT, you are going to need new rules to regulate them.

Item 1: The CRX is only a visible tip of the iceberg. The Acura and the 240 are also issues, albeit in smaller numbers. But I know of numbers of them that are under construction as I type, and will be driven by fast drivers. There is no question that in A, the big dogs are the 240SX, the CRX, the Integra, and to lesser degrees, the Saturn and the Miata. Then there are all the others.

The Integra in question that set the fast race lap at the ARRCs was, I believe, a conservative engine. Hopefully the owner might pop up here an shed some light, but I bet there's a bit more to be had. But not 160!

Item 2: Good point. The ECU rule was a huge dive into a Pandoras box, and really a defacto competition adjustment for cars that were already classed. And as you point out, a crapshoot for cars thet get classified post ECU rule. The solution lies in more post classification flexibility, in the form of PCAs, or in extreme cases, class migration with appropriate changes.


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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by cherokee:
I agree to a point , but the reason for bringing up this move is the same as it is for the 7. Put one car of every make in the field and both 944 and RX-7 would be a top 5-10 car. Yes there is a problem but the overdogs is the problem, not all the other cars behind it.

I wish it could be that way....but the problem with A, and the problem with S aren't limited to each class, but are interrelated. The E36 is a bit fast...fine slap a little weight on it, and duck when the owners hear it. Simple. But what about the Neon?? There are huge numbers of them out there, with cages! Not to mention the hordes of fast Honda/Nissan/insert your favorite ripping fast 2 or so litre car here, as well. It will be next to impossible to get them light enough to get the job done in S. And the health of IT depends on this type of car, so what to do? ITA could be the solution.

Throwing weight on the big three in A would be a start for A alone, but now you're faced with throwing more weight, and a lot of it, on these down from S cars.

A bigger picture look at IT, that involves utilizing all the classes, makes more sense.



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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[oanglade]

There is no way you can use weight ONLY to balance everything out. Some cars would need a lot of lead and some others would not be able to be light enough.

Any way you want to slice it, you end up with adding an extra IT class AND using weight as PCA.

IT used to have more than 4 classes. We got rid of one on one end and now we are stuffing the one on the other end.

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Ony Anglade
ITA Miata
Sugar Hill, GA

[cherokee]

Jake, I agree with you 100%. The IT classes are not setup well at all, In 198x they where in 200x they are not, time and technology has marched on the rules have not or have had a band-aid stuck on them.

I would think that B&C could be squished together, Call it ITO (old cars) I think that you could get these cars all pretty close with some playing around....and it might that car specific adjustments (I know dirty word)...but we are talking about old cars you have a better idea of what is going to happen if you give someone an adjustment. How many new cars are going to fit in B or C, or even cars build in the last 15 years...not many. Then you will have 3 classes to shuffle the existing A&S cars into. I don't think that any existing A or S driver would object to this idea. I doubt that B drivers would, the only ones out in the cold would be the C drivers. They would most likely have to spend more money/time to make whatever mods are in question, or drop a ton of weight on the faster B cars.
This is a problem that is not going to go away, only get worse, and tough/big decisions are going to have to be made.

[jjadczak]

I'll support your efforts to reclassify the 944 from ITS to ITA and I am part of a team that races 2 Porsche 924's in ITA. Let me know what I need to do. Contact me off the board.

Jeremy