944 Reclassification Proposal

[jalexbell]

I would like to propose a reclassification of the Porsche 944 from ITS to ITA. I need help in gathering comparative track times across the US. If anyone is intersted in helping me with this project please respond to this post.
Thanks

[Greg Amy]

You're kidding, right?

[lateapex911]

Yea, ITA needs a new front runner!

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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[924Guy]

I'm in...

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Vaughan Scott
Detroit Region #280052
'79 924 #77 ITA/GTS1
www.vaughanscott.com

[JeffYoung]

Not to sound like a smart a@#, but, does this mean I can move my TR8 to B?

As much as we complain about classification issues, I don't think there are any glaring problems despite what people say. Yeah, the BMW is probably a little light in ITS but I still see RX7s and even 240zs winning races. In A, yes, the CRX is a very capable car, but the fastest IT7 RX7 here in North Carolina routinely beats the CRXs at VIR.

Everyone has to know that any changes will just make imperfect system imperfect in a different way. Yes, I'm a competitive person, and I'd like to win, but I also know that I bought into the system in part because I reallywanted to race a Triumph in IT. I'll develop it, race it and work on the driver. Have a blast, but probably never win. So be it. If in 3-4 years, my desire to win outweighs my desire to race a Triumph, I'll chose a front runner and buy it and see how my luck goes.

Seems to me to be a less frustratig course of action than trying to make an imperfect system perfect.

[RSTPerformance]

That idea is even worse than moving the old RX-7 from ITA to ITB...

Read this posting about the RX-7 move... all my thoughts apply to this proposed reclasification as well

Raymond "sorry but I am not in support" Blethen

[Geo]

The 8v 944 has nearly the same spec as the single cam 240SX.

If you look at the weight/power of the leading ITA cars it's a really good fit. Add some weight for the larger brakes and I think it's a damned good fit.

To show just how poor a fit it is in ITS, look at the weight/power of the 944S and compare it with the 8v 944.

I'll support your request and not because I'm building one. I'll support it because it makes sense when comparing it to other cars in ITS and ITA.


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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[JLawton]

If that change happens I'll be P.O.ed!!! I just got rid of my 944 knowing it would NEVER be competive in ITS (at least in the Norhteast). Even with a Milledge engine (which I couldn't afford) and done to the extent of the rules, driven by some good drivers (not me), a 944 would be in the mix in ITA and almost 2 seconds off the leaders in ITS at Limerock.

My 83 started with 143HP. That can't compare to the 325 or 944S........ Plus the fact it is VERY difficult to get the car down to the min weight legaly.

Good luck, but don't bank on it!!

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Jeff L
#74 ITB GTi

[JeffYoung]

George, for the sake of discussion, not to argue, couldn't you make that same argument (a power to weight argument that they belong in A) for about 50% of the cars in ITS?

There is more to a car's competitiveness than just hp and weight. Brakes, suspension type, intangibles, etc. 944 stock is about what, 145 hp? With a great stock suspension and brakes. In IT trim, I know it sees less gains than others, but it still should make 160-170 hp.

[924Guy]

Originally posted by JeffYoung:
George, for the sake of discussion, not to argue, couldn't you make that same argument (a power to weight argument that they belong in A) for about 50% of the cars in ITS?

There is more to a car's competitiveness than just hp and weight. Brakes, suspension type, intangibles, etc. 944 stock is about what, 145 hp? With a great stock suspension and brakes. In IT trim, I know it sees less gains than others, but it still should make 160-170 hp.

Yeah, hey, yet another reason (IMO) to push the issue of correcting all these classification messes by bombarding the Club Racing Board with reclass requests. I think the 944'd make a good ITA car, and I'm an ITA driver! Too bad I have an ITB car.

Hmmm, let's see... 170hp and 2710lbs... well, it might almost be able to keep up with a 150hp, 2100lb CRX... maybe. Still will be hosed on the short tracks, but then, that's why we call it ITCRX around here!

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Vaughan Scott
Detroit Region #280052
'79 924 #77 ITA/GTS1
www.vaughanscott.com

[JeffYoung]

Guys, I do understand the frustration, trust me. My car is a lot like a 944 in a lot of ways. In some respects, torque for example, it is an ITS class leader. In others, braking, rear suspension, it is not. Doubtful I could ever run with a well prepped Second Gen RX7 or E36 BMW.

But does a 944 or a TR8 belong in ITA, as ITA is presently constituted? I just don't see it. Moving those cars into A would be as big a mistake as classing the E36 at the weight it was classed. So, net improvement to the whole IT scheme is zero.

A more viable option in some ways is a new class between S and A. However, you do that and you start heading down the road towards what you have in NASA, which is a "class for everything" and smaller effective car fields for your class.

I like large IT fields. I get to race with slow S cars, ITAs and IT7s. That's perfectly acceptable to me, I have fun doing it.

I just don't see anything "broke" enough about this system to either (a) make small piecemeal changes that just cause other problems or ( make wholesale revisions.

[Jake]

I'd hate to see another IT (low-cost racing) class dominated by another Porsche or BMW, but that said - if the numbers make sence it should definatly be considered. But I sincerely hope that it gets in line AFTER Greg's poor little ITS Datsun.

[Geo]

I probably shouldn't have opened my mouth.

I'll just say that I'm a fan of having like cars classified together. This is not 100% possible (e.g., what other car is like the CRX), but it should be mostly possible.

And yes, that is a problem at this time (i.e. like cars are not necessarily classified together).


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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[This message has been edited by Geo (edited March 14, 2004).]

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by 924Guy:

Hmmm, let's see... 170hp and 2710lbs... well, it might almost be able to keep up with a 150hp, 2100lb CRX... maybe. Still will be hosed on the short tracks, but then, that's why we call it ITCRX around here!

Thank GOD, the CRX doesn't have 150 WhP! That would be a p/w ratio of 14:1. An RX-7 (120, 2380) is about 20. An Integra is (a bit of a guess) is mid 17s. The CRX is about 17.4. The 944, (170? 2710) is 15.94.

Big brakes, great suspension, and IRS make this a formidable contender. Perhaps PCAs are a better outlet for this one.

Geo, sorry to drag this up, but didn't you yourself make the case that 944s were classed properly, and were winning races, in a thread here about a year ago?

I submit that there are far better candidates for inclusion in ITA, (Nissan NX2000, the Sentra SER, the NEON) than the 944. If a jump to A is to be considered, and if staying in S isn't possible with a weight break (due to the inability to get down legally), how does an ITA weight of 2980 sound? (2980/170 = p/w of 17.53)

I think to examine this further, we need real dyno numbers. Stock is 145, rumour has it at 170, and the standard bump is 166.5. So, what's the real number?

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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[This message has been edited by lateapex911 (edited March 14, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by lateapex911 (edited March 14, 2004).]

[ITSRX7]

Milledge quotes 185hp at the crank for a full bore ITS 8V motor.

Data from the Northeast shows the 944 running almost a second faster than ITA (Russ Jones) in 2002 against very quick drivers (Serra) until he sold the car.

Some cars are more than the sum of their parts. BMW, Porsche, Honda...

I think it's a decent ITS car, not a record breaker, but not an ITA car either.

AB

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Andy Bettencourt
06 ITS RX-7
FlatOut Motorsports
New England Region #188967

[Fastfred92]

Hey Jake, what class is ANY Porsche dominating in SCCA ?????? This is the SCCA, right? Even the poor 914 has no chance in IT, or production or any other class. Do not forget that this is the SCCA, a club started by British sports car guys... who by the way hate Porsches. I would support this move but it will NEVER happen !!!

[Geo]

Originally posted by lateapex911:
An Integra is (a bit of a guess) is mid 17s.

Poor guess. I'll bet the Integra makes the same power as the 944 at tremendously lower weight.

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George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[JeffYoung]

George, how goes the 944 by the way? Hadn't heard an update in a while.....

[Jake]

Originally posted by Fastfred92:
Hey Jake, what class is ANY Porsche dominating in SCCA ??????

Good point, they aren't in IT. The Boxters did dominate for a while in Solo2, but that was prior to the Honda S2000. Sorry to lump poor old Porsches in with the bling-bling ITS Bimmers.

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by Geo:
Poor guess. I'll bet the Integra makes the same power as the 944 at tremendously lower weight.

Really....?
My understanding was the Integra had decent power in the 135 range, but better torque. At the wheels of course. Do you have info leading you to believe a number closer to 160?? At it's weight, that would be a staggering ovrdog.

If the Milledge number is used, and we apply a reduction for drivetrain loss, we're looking at 160 or so, correct?

Too fast for A, a little light for S. Best hope is a thorough weight loss program after a break from PCAs (which is all theoretical at this point!)


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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]