driver's side glass

[troyt]

I'm seeking clarification from the '05 GCR. I'm new to ITS, so indulge me with a question that has probably been beaten like the proverbial dead horse.
Can you remove the driver's side window glass and mechanism WITHOUT having to use the "gutting clause" from building a bulging NASCAR style roll cage?
Thanks, Troy

[jc836]

NO

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Grandpa's toys-modded suspensions and a few other tweaks
'89 CRX Si-SCCA ITA #99
'03 Dodge Dakota Club Cab V8-Patriot Blue gonna tow

[Greg Amy]

No.

[Bill Miller]

No

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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[Joe Harlan]

No!

[Mike Guenther]

Yes..............but its illegal.

[lateapex911]

No.............

BUT...read the definition of what is considered "NASCAR" door bars carefully...it doesn't match many preconceived notions..

I think that, even if the door bar is already welded in, that I would rip it out and redo it in order to gut the door. It's big freebie in the rules if you ask me.

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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[turboICE]

On a related topic, I have written to request that NASCAR door bars be permitted on the passenger side.

In support of Performance Driving Experience (PDE) events, permit these classes to utilize NASCAR style door bars on the passenger side.

3.1.3.3. in the TTR requires "a passenger seat with the same safety equipment as the driver."

A NASCAR style door bar is a significant piece of the driver's safety equipment. As the TTR currently stands my ITA prepared car could not be used in a PDE because the driver seat has NASCAR style door bars and the passenger seat does not.

Rather than changing the TTR rules to permit a lower standard for the passenger door bars than the driver side has - the T, SS and IT rules should be improved to permit the use of NASCAR style door bars on the passenger side of the vehicle.

With Regards,
Ed

I think they are already permitted in touring anyway, but I have a friend who wants to use my car for a PDE but can't since the passenger side does not have the same safety as the driver.

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Ed.
240SX ITA

[This message has been edited by turboICE (edited May 03, 2005).]

[lateapex911]

The trip up with the request is the vagueness of the term "safety equipment"..

3.1.3.3. in the TTR requires "a passenger seat with the same safety equipment as the driver."

Who decides what is and what isn't "safety equipment"? A logical premise, reading the wording, might be that since "a passenger seat" doesn't say an "identical" passenger seat, that it can be anything. And, therefor, if IT can be anything, it must not be considered part of the term "safety equipment", ergo, neither are the door bars.

I can see that case being made very effectively to allow the car's use as a driver ed car.

Conversly, would it better for neither door to have them???? (The inverse logic suggests that the car would acceptable at that point for driver ed usage..)

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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[This message has been edited by lateapex911 (edited May 04, 2005).]

[Bryan Watts]

Originally posted by lateapex911:
Conversly, would it better for neither door to have them???? (The inverse logic suggests that the car would acceptable at that point for driver ed usage..)

For that matter, does anyone know for sure that the standard 2-bar "NASCAR" bars really provide more protection than a good X-brace with gussets? Let's be honest, none of the NASCAR bars in IT cars are built like the bars you see in NASCAR (at least 4 laddar rungs with multiple connecting bars between).

In my mind, bent bars can simply bend inwards in an impact just as much as they were bent outwards. Whereas, for an X-brace to fail, the welds must either break or the bars must actually stretch along their length.

Most T-bones we see in IT cars are in braking zones at 80 mph or less between fairly "light" cars...compared to NASCAR where 3400 pound cars hit each other at 160+ mph.

I actually know an IT car builder who is trying to track down a few junk cars to run an informal test to compare the two type door bars. We've just got to find the test driver who's willing to drive the impact car.

[This message has been edited by Bryan Watts (edited May 04, 2005).]

[ddewhurst]

Ed, you can do GCR type NASCAR bars in the passenger side doors today. You can not gut the door or glass.

Bryan Watts, are you approx 25 years young & the guy who raced WKA Karts in the past.

Have Fun
David

[This message has been edited by ddewhurst (edited May 04, 2005).]

[Andy Bettencourt]

Ed,

I think knowing that the NASCAR bars are optional in IT should rule out the neccessity for them on the passenger side.

AB

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Andy Bettencourt
New England Region, R188967
www.flatout-motorsports.com

[Knestis]

I tend to believe what I think Mr. Watts is saying. There was a great conversation here some time ago and good points were made on both sides of the question.

K

[turboICE]

1. I can understand how an organization like this creates vague and internally inconsistent rules, believing at the time that they are neither. But I would like to believe that they would correct it when it is identified to them.

2. NASCAR bars are defined:

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">If installed, shall consist of one or more sidebars that intrude into the door cavity and connect the main hoop to the front hoop</font>

Clearly style only means that a sidebar intrudes into the door. There is no requirement that they meet NASCAR build specs.

3. I actually see no allowance made for IT to use NASCAR style door bars on the passenger side. Beginning with SS as the base of IT cages, SS only permits the driver side tube to enter the door, no allowance is made for the passenger side, so it is not permitted. The additional IT safety rules do not add any permission for a tube to enter the passenger door.

Passenger NASCAR style door bars are not permitted and even if they were they could not be installed without gutting and removal of the window glass.

(Post is in response to several others)

[This message has been edited by turboICE (edited May 04, 2005).]

[ddewhurst]

turboICE, please read ITCS rule 17.1.4.D.10.a.5. Any number on additional reinforcing bars are permitted within the structure of the cage,

Your defination of how far a GCR NASCAR bar/bars extends towards the door area & the defination of someone else may be two different dimensions.

Have Fun
David

[Bryan Watts]

Originally posted by ddewhurst:
Bryan Watts, are you approx 25 years young & the guy who raced WKA Karts in the past.

I'm exactly 25, but I've never raced karts. I, like many, wish that my dad and I had known about them when I was younger. I have raced a little bit of Star Mazda in the past...mostly getting beaten up by guys younger than me who had been in karts.

I'm a Spec Miata guy for now (well I've got the car, but haven't had time/$$ to race yet this year). Built an ITS E36 back in 2000, but ended up BMW CCA Club Racing it instead. Just lurking around here now, as I may be putting something together for ITS later this year or next...maybe by the ARRC's.

[This message has been edited by Bryan Watts (edited May 04, 2005).]

[turboICE]

David, I am pretty sure that intruding into the door cavity is pretty unambiguous regarding what is and what is not a GCR NASCAR type bar. By intruding into the cavity it by definition has to occupy space previously occupied by some part of the interior door structure.

I am familar with the clause you refer to and I do not believe that tubing extending outside of the plane of the main hoop and front hoop would be considered "within the structure".

But then again this isn't even why I posted, my belief is they are not permitted and I have asked that they be permitted. If they already are permitted then the committee will be sure to point that out to me in Fastrack.

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Ed.
240SX ITA

[ddewhurst]

Bryan, enjoy the site & enjoy your racing as you get to it.

***On a related topic, I have written to request that NASCAR door bars be permitted on the passenger side.***

***I am pretty sure that intruding into the door cavity***

Ed, I didn't say anything about intruding into the door cavity.


Have Fun
David

[turboICE]

You didn't say anything about intruding but the GCR does.

<font face=\"Verdana, Arial\" size=\"2\">Your defination of how far a GCR NASCAR bar/bars extends towards the door area & the defination of someone else may be two different dimensions.</font>

In relation to the definition of a NASCAR style door bar the GCR does say something about intruding into the cavity. My point being that a GCR NASCAR style door bar would necessitate door gutting at some level. You were claiming that my definition differed from someone elses and that a "GCR NASCAR bar/bars" could be installed without requiring gutting - if they don't intrude into the door's cavity they aren't GCR NASCAR bar/bars.

Ed.

[This message has been edited by turboICE (edited May 05, 2005).]

[jc836]

Our CRX is equipped with the "optional" NASCAR 'style' door bars on the driver's side-BUT they do not intrude into the door itself. This set is tightly fitted against the inner door panel. So-this arrangement does not allow one to gut the door, but provides more strength to the cage. If one looks at a NASCAR car you will see that the construction of the bars in their case would require gutting of the door be it driver or passenger side. Our passenger side does have 2 bars, one of which is angled and the other is horizontal. I have a bit of difficulty with the idea that an X-brace is going to be any better unless it is heavily gusseted.


------------------
Grandpa's toys-modded suspensions and a few other tweaks
'89 CRX Si-SCCA ITA #99
'03 Dodge Dakota Club Cab V8-Patriot Blue gonna tow

[This message has been edited by jc836 (edited May 05, 2005).]