racing room ??

[Matt Rowe]

Bill, that looks pretty reasonable, but . . .

My first concern is there are a lot of words. Yes that is a pretty thin argument but typically the more words in a rule the more people tend to find "alternate" interpretations. That certainly isn't a good reason to toss it out but something to bear in mind.

Second, the phrase "then the overtaking car is entitled to racing room" could be taken that prior to that point the overtaking car is NOT entitled to racing room. Either that or you are restating what is already established under the existing rule which says that everyone is entitle to racing room. Also it can be implied that blocking is allowed prior to that point because the phrase about impeding the car does not take effect yet.

I do like the second rule concept protecting the position of the guy who avoids contact when he is not at fault. While I don't see anything inherently wrong in the wording I think coming up with evidence to support a protest is going to be difficult at best.


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~Matt Rowe
ITA Shelby Charger
MARRS #96

[This message has been edited by Matt Rowe (edited May 17, 2005).]

[ITAMiata]

I like Bill's policy. I especially like the 2nd part that covers the responsible driver.

Bill Hollinger
ITA Miata #33

[tbtapper]

what Rickey fails to tell you about racing room at the SIC incident 2 yrs ago is;
We appealed his protest because the GCR states that the lead car is obligated to give racing room for the overtaking car as well as the other way. the stewards agreed with our appeal since we had witnesses and marks on the side of Thumpers car. Rickey appealed that decision and provided a video from a following car. The appeal board observed the overtaking car under rickey and braking as well as putting wheels in the dirt to avoid contact. Rickey----it wasnt a rear end collision as you claim. Rickey you just arent telling the whole truth.

in reference to the incident 2 wks ago, i was following Rickey as he attempted to pass other cars in the dirt drivers right. He "in front of you drifted" two or three cars and slid drivers left fairly out of control. I lost sight of him at that point but he was not in control at last sighting.He probably got control in that millisecond because he never makes mistakes(just ask him). Well that apparently means that old "Thumper" bumped wheels with him in a dastardly plot to put him out of the race. I wonder where the mud came from since Roebling is pretty much all sand?
Yours Truly Bubba San

[tbtapper]

what Rickey fails to tell you about racing room at the SIC incident 2 yrs ago is;
We appealed his protest because the GCR states that the lead car is obligated to give racing room for the overtaking car as well as the other way. the stewards agreed with our appeal since we had witnesses and marks on the side of Thumpers car. Rickey appealed that decision and provided a video from a following car. The appeal board observed the overtaking car under rickey and braking as well as putting wheels in the dirt to avoid contact. Rickey----it wasnt a rear end collision as you claim. Rickey you just arent telling the whole truth.

in reference to the incident 2 wks ago, i was following Rickey as he attempted to pass other cars in the dirt drivers right. He "in front of you drifted" two or three cars and slid drivers left fairly out of control. I lost sight of him at that point but he was not in control at last sighting.He probably got control in that millisecond because he never makes mistakes(just ask him). Well that apparently means that old "Thumper" bumped wheels with him in a dastardly plot to put him out of the race. I wonder where the mud came from since Roebling is pretty much all sand?
Yours Truly Bubba San

[Hotshoe]

...I know what happened at the SIC, and so do a lot of other people. I have a tape to prove it, and will gladly send a copy of it to you John Henderson.
...And as far as the race a couple of weeks ago at Roebling Road. I ran off the track in turn four to avoid contact with Tim Dejoris in his Acura Integra because he did not see me and cut me off. See, some of us do try to avoid contact. Remember "Safety First"
...So, why don't you ask Jeff Ryan and Tim Dejoris what happened at Roebling Road a couple of weeks ago. They both saw what happened and they will be glad to "tell you the TRUTH"
...And you are wrong about the way you think I perceive myself. I do make mistakes, I trusted the driver of the 6 car didn't I.
...Oh, and ask Kurt about how much "mud / wet sand" I removed from inside my right front wheel.
...I can only hope that you and the rest of those that feel like there is a problem here can put it to rest.
...I mentioned what happened because unsafe driving needs to be addressed. Like I said, If another driver feels like they are wanting to win no matter what the cost. Then please let me know. I consider my SAFETY worth a lot more, and would rather sit that race out.

... And should we care to mention who was passing cars under a RED FLAG a few weeks ago at Roebling Road?

...Rick Thompson # 99 IT7



[This message has been edited by Hotshoe (edited May 31, 2005).]

[Greg Amy]

I had a good one this weekend at LRP where one of the green ITS Golfs literally drove me off the left side of the track, nearly into the Aarmco, going down No Name Straight. Since I didn't know which one of you to "have a discussion with", I figured it was best to grab a beer and let it go.

To whichever one of you that was (and I have a fairly good idea), consider this little tidbit: had I not taken to the grass to avoid you as you came over on me as I was passing you, the end result would have been to turn you sideways, directly into said Aarmco. It would not have been a positive development for that pretty metallic green paint.

You owe me, at the very least, an apology, if not a sixpack of my favorite (and I have higher beer standards than DP).

Greg Amy
#31 ITS black Miata

[67ITB]

Greg,

I don’t know which one it was, but since I was pitted with both, and tow one of the cars to the track...... I don’t think that either post here.

Next time just stop over and chat with them, as they are both reasonable people. And I am sure they could both learn from the situation. I will pass this along to them.

Not to mention I don’t need to try and get a busted car in the trailer for any reason!!!!!

I for one had a great time racing with you on Saturday. There is a long break now so you should be able to get both cars fixed!!!

Matt Bal

[dickita15]

Originally posted by Hotshoe:
... And should we care to mention who was passing cars under a RED FLAG a few weeks ago at Roebling Road?

not that it is relevant to this disagreement, but to set the record staight, there is nothing against the rules about passing under a red flag.

dick patullo

[Hotshoe]

Dick,

... I sure hope they don't make you a Steward.
...The rule is written that you come to an "immediate controlled stop". So, If the three cars in front of you stop and pull to the right and you do not then you better have a good excuse why your car could not stop as well as the ones in front of you.
...I think the rule is clear enough without having to over explain it.

...Read between the lines...

[Bryan Watts]

Originally posted by Hotshoe:
...The rule is written that you come to an "immediate controlled stop". So, If the three cars in front of you stop and pull to the right and you do not then you better have a good excuse why your car could not stop as well as the ones in front of you.

The problem is that I rarely see people coming to a "controlled" stop in red flag conditions. They see a red flag and go into panic mode and forget to check their mirros when when I'm only a car length behind. You better believe I'm going to just flick the car around them and come to a stop in a controlled and calm manner near a corner station instead of going into full-on lockup mode like the duffus in front of me, potentially causing another wreck when race control already has a serious problem on it's hands.

[gran racing]

True, but at the same time if the car in front of a person comes to a very controlled stop and gradually pulls off to the side the following car can not simply "come to an even more controlled stop" after that car. And if they do for whatever reason, they should allow the car they passed to move back in front of them once the red flag is taken away. (Again, talking in general and not about the other situation they are debating)

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Dave Gran
NER ITB #13
'87 Honda Prelude si

[lateapex911]

Originally posted by Hotshoe:
Dick,

... I sure hope they don't make you a Steward.
...The rule is written that you come to an "immediate controlled stop". So, If the three cars in front of you stop and pull to the right and you do not then you better have a good excuse why your car could not stop as well as the ones in front of you.
...I think the rule is clear enough without having to over explain it.

...Read between the lines...

Sadly, Dick is one of the more reasonable, clear thinking and relatively not uptight guys I have met in racing....and for those reasons, he is apparently not steward material. Too bad, he'd be great.

As for passing under the red, the whole point as I understand it is to stop the race, and clear the track.

So if you are in a bunch of cars, I can very easily see a situation where you are tucked in tight to a guy and you don't see the flag, just him suddenly moving right or left and stopping, as though he had a problem. Of course, as soon as he moved over your vison would be clear, and you would see and abide by the red flag, but you might end up stopped ahead of him.

No harm, no foul...and nothing to get excited about.

Now, if a guy sails by stopped car after stopped car, he should be hit upside the head for being a bonehead who doesn't look at the flaggers and is acting in a dangerous manner.

I am sure that Dick, if we were lucky enough to have him as a steward, would attend to that situation properly.....



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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[dickita15]

Originally posted by Hotshoe:
Dick,
... I sure hope they don't make you a Steward.

well Rick we agree at least on that.

Originally posted by Hotshoe:

...The rule is written that you come to an "immediate controlled stop"...
...I think the rule is clear enough without having to over explain it.

well if you have a problem with someone not coming to a controled stop, say so. passing under a red is perfectly legal and I am only interested in a casual reader not thinking otherwise. if a driver in front of me does a panic stop under red the only responsible action for me is to pass the person and then pull over off line in a safe position.

Dick patullo

[RSTPerformance]

"Sadly, Dick is one of the more reasonable, clear thinking and relatively not uptight guys I have met in racing....and for those reasons, he is apparently not steward material. Too bad, he'd be great."

Jake- So you are stating that all stewards are unreasonable, unclear at thinking, and uptight? Careful before you respond to this, as I haven’t hung out with you this year yet Some of them might be watching, and they don't forget the hostile

The real reason though for my post... I am not going to get into the debate on what is racing room and can we pass under a red or not. However I will comment that from a steward’s point of view I dealt with a few driver vs. driver protests last weekend at the Nelson Ledges National that dealt specifically with the ideas behind racing room. I WAS VERY SUPRISED... It isn't easy to determine with a piece of paper what really happened. I was surprised that none of the drivers in any case had videos but it was helpful to listen to the witnesses. Without the witness it really was a he said / she said, especially for me as I was way out of region and did not know any background on the drivers in question. My advice for those really worried... Get video's and always get a witness. Many of us are "growing/learning drivers" so first try to talk (civil) to the driver you had an issue with, and don't be afraid to bring the video with you (I have used the video once to defuse an issue with another driver and actually team up with the other driver to file a protest on someone else). If all else fails make a protest, we all want this to be as safe as possible .

Raymond "delete, delete, delete" Blethen

PS: I know some of you are probably giggling as I certainly have been "wound up" a few times... Looking back though I can't think of one situation it helped me in... Live and learn.

[dickita15]

Originally posted by RSTPerformance:
Live and learn.

raymond, think how smart you will be when you get to be my age.


mr patullo

[lateapex911]

Ahhh good points young Raymond...and upon re-reading, it DOES sound like a slam on stewards....

You will note that it was written in the middle of the day..a very odd time for me to post as I am aways working then, but I had a minute, and responded hurriedly.

The concept was more that Dick thinks he's not quite crazy enough to take the Stewards position, as it's not the easiest job around.

As in: Dick is way too clear thinking to get himself into a job like that!

All in good fun anyway...

Look, folks know that like drivers, we have some good apples, some average apples and some apples that you might want pick around in the Stewards role....but since I have been racing with the club, NER at least, has made some great inroads in improving the club official/driver interface.

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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]