racing room ??

[ITANorm]

Bill D.: I agree with your philosophy, but until we perfect and use lie detectors in SOM hearings, it's unenforceable. I've NEVER been on a first court where it wasn't the other guy's fault . . . never.

I'm less aggressive than some, more than others - but I won't attempt a banzai / unmakeable pass in hopes the other guy will give / flinch. In 12 years of racing, I've been lucky enough to only swap paint twice - and neither time was serious body work required.

Steve L. : You should come back to Gateway. You would have probably had an easy win on Sunday and an easy 2nd on Saturday. The only really fast ITA car there broke on Sunday - and I think you've beaten all the others there. BTW - they broke out the SM's and IT7's into their own group.

[gran racing]

There are a lot of good points being made here; unfortunately I can’t see a way to eliminate the subjectivity of it.

Bill – you make a good point about a person getting a rep acting responsible. During my first year of racing I was overly responsible and got bumped a few times and not given racing room on other occasions by a few particular drivers. They knew they could get away with it so they did. Funny how after the car gets hit a few times, the pretty paint job gets messed up and one gains more experience. While I still will not do any stupid moves (at least on purpose), my attitude definitely has changed. Much of my feeling is if you respect me and the safety of others, I’ll show you the same respect. But on the other hand if someone wants to rub…


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Dave Gran
NER ITB #13
'87 Honda Prelude si

[Matt Rowe]

Originally posted by bldn10:
The way I see it, Matt, is that if I am trying to pass you and I know exactly where I need to get by a certain point, I can make the mental evaluation whether I can do it or not, and act acordingly. Or, as you said, responsibly. Conversely, you will know when you have to give it up.

Yes, there should be a "safe" point that you have to get to. In fact under the current rule there already is. It's the point where the other car knows where you are because any contact can potentially be his responsibility. Oh and just because you get along side someone don't expect them to give it up. You get room, not an engraved invitation to complete the pass.

Originally posted by bldn10:
As I'm sure you know, if you get the rep of being the guy who always acts "responsibly" and avoids contact at all cost, you will be a sitting duck for the guys who will take advantage of your good intentions.

I used the word responsible for a reason. It means that although I might provide racing room, incidental contact might still occur. And if it does I know that depending on the situation I also take some RESPONSIBILITY and it doesn't matter if the person was dead even, at my rear wheel or at my front well. It is the responsibility of all drivers to avoid physical contact between cars while on the race track

Originally posted by bldn10:
On the other hand, if you do have a rule that gives you "the 'right' to cause contact," then the other guy knows he has put himself in a position where you can indeed take your line and he will have a pretty good notion that it will be he who gets penalized if contact occurs.

But what if the overtaken guy doesn't quite get close enough to complete the pass but he is alongside. A rule that eliminates a driver from blame allows the lead driver to run the other off track without fear of protest. So much for racing a guy side by side for 3 turns, he can put you off in the first turn.

My feeling is the rule is adequate as written, the implementation has flaws. Some of them or a lack of observation/evidence. Other problems are inconsistency in the officials decisions. I would much rather see time spent on that than changing a rule that has been in effect and working for how long?

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~Matt Rowe
ITA Shelby Charger
MARRS #96

[This message has been edited by Matt Rowe (edited May 10, 2005).]

[Weaver7]

Matt you were behind me for the first half of the MARRS I event. I must say that we were indeed racing hard! But with that being said we never made contact once and we were extremley close to each other at times. I think we gave each other enough safe space and I'll admit you eventually wore me down. This also goes out to the racer in the red 240. That was alot of fun to say the least.

Bill Weaver
#63 ITA RX7

[Matt Rowe]

Hi Bill,

That was a lot of fun running with you that day. We were awfully close a time or two but you seemed to be good enough behind the wheel that I wasn't worried about you getting into to me. At least not by accident. So I'm guessing that you don't think I'm "too nice" when I'm out on track?


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~Matt Rowe
ITA Shelby Charger
MARRS #96

[Hotshoe]

...I have a hard time understanding why someone would risk their safety and the safety of another driver for a ten dollar trophy.
...Just a few weeks ago at Savannah I attempted to pass another car on the outside of turns one and two. I gave the other driver plenty of room and made no move to try and "Pinch" him down.
...Knowing that I had the better of him I made a special effort to keep it clean and give him more than enough room. But that was not good enough for him.
...He over drove the exit of turn two, and hit the right door of my car, not once, but twice. Then proceeded to push me sideways out into the grass before braking and getting off the side of my car.
...Did I protest him? No Way, Same driver two years ago punted me in turn six at the SIC and I was charged with blocking and he was totally behind me when contact was made.
...I can imagine what they would say about this incident. They would probably say that I should not have tried to pass on the outside.
...I only suffered minimal damage to my car but was glad that I had the experience to stay in the throttle and not lock the brakes because the car did try to dig in while he was pushing me sideways. Sure do not like to roll over in a corner that has had it's share of cars roll over in the soft dirt.
...I was unable to continue because the right front wheel filled with mud and was out of balance so bad that it could not be safely driven.
...So, I got to race five laps of a fifteen lap race because someone that has no respect for the safety of another driver decided to overdrive their car, knock me off the track, spin me around, and cost me about $400.00 all for a trophy??????
...If I am ever in a race with anyone that has this mentality please, let me know. I will gladly sit that race out. It is not worth it to me. I have things in my life that are a lot more important to me than a TROPHY . And my safety is the first one on the list.

...Tired of the tunnel vision,
..........Rick Thompson

[zracre]

At the march double sarrc in moroso...the definition of racing room= 0. My car came back with a dent on every corner from people shoving me off the outside trying to keep the ita car back...i was trying to stay in front with all the its cars stopping in the corners...more needs to be done about this....not worth the little wooden trophy for the win i got...$800 trophy....

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Evan Darling
ITA Integra

[bldn10]

"Yes, there should be a 'safe' point that you have to get to. In fact under the current rule there already is. It's the point where the other car knows where you are because any contact can potentially be his responsibility."

Matt, where is that in the current rules? All it says now is that "the overtaken driver has the responsibility to be aware that he is being overtaken...." You are stating Pobst's rule. That's exactly what I mean - everyone assumes certain things are in the rules but they really aren't. If we drive and the SOM and COA make rulings beased on extrinsic principles, let's make them part of the written rules.

"Oh and just because you get along side someone don't expect them to give it up. You get room, not an engraved invitation to complete the pass."

Absolutely. When I say "give it up" I am only referring to the preferred line - you can't at that point turn in on the guy. However, he only gets a car width racing room and if that is not enough for him to make the pass safely, any contact is his responsibility. Inherent in any suggestion I make is that the overtaking car is under control and can make the turn w/o leaning on the overtaken car or cutting him off at the exit. I.e. no banzai moves.

If the overtaking car get's alongside but not to the magic point, yes, the overtaken car would have the right to the line, meaning that the overtaking car should back off. But you would still have the rule re avoiding contact and it would be paramount. However, if the overtaken car gives way to avoid contact when the overtaking car is in the wrong, and he loses his position by doing so, he should be able to protest and get his position back whether there is contact or not. That way the overtaking car is in a lose-lose position - a rather effective disincentive to try to bully your way through. Or at least a better one than what we have now. (Of course the overtaken driver doesn't HAVE to protest - we all enjoy hard, side-by-side racing w/ someone we can trust, and that is its own reward - more than a hunk of wood.)

Dave and Norm, you are right that we cannot eliminate subjectivity or factual disputes; but that does not have to be the only objective. Is not REDUCING the subjectivity a worthy goal? All I'm saying is let's just get everyone on the same page. Moreover, the vague rules we have now are an incentive to argue everything you can think of rather than a defined set of relevant facts.

Let me ask all of you to just have an open mind to rewriting the rules. Don't be against it because you don't think it can be done - let those who are willing to try have a shot at it - only be against it if you are completely happy w/ the rules as they are now. And I don't mean as you assume them to be or as Randy Pobst or anyone else explains them to you.

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Bill Denton
87/89 ITS RX-7
02 Audi TT225QC
95 Tahoe
Memphis

[Matt Rowe]

Originally posted by bldn10:
Matt, where is that in the current rules? All it says now is that "the overtaken driver has the responsibility to be aware that he is being overtaken...."

Bill, it is located in 9.1.1.A - It is the responsibility of all drivers to avoid physical contact between cars on the race track. That section allows a steward to penalize either or both drivers in a situation depending on the facts in that particular case. If you create a rule that defines a point where driver A has the right to line then the stewards will be left with no recourse to punish the guys making banzai passes.

Originally posted by bldn10:
Inherent in any suggestion I make is that the overtaking car is under control and can make the turn w/o leaning on the overtaken car or cutting him off at the exit. I.e. no banzai moves.

You say it is inherent but I would like to see the wording that guarantees that. I don't think it is possible to make hard and fast rule like what you want without removing the necessary flexibility. But, even though I don't think it's possible I would be happy to debate proposed wording with you. Just put up something definite and I'll try and shoot it full of holes.


I am assuming that your idea of a clear rule is something along the lines of the overtaking driver has the right to the perferred line when his front bumper is even with the overtakens cars door/front wheel/front bumper. In that case I still think you will see people diving down the inside just to get their bumper to touch whatever that magic point is. In the protest the only hard evidence will be the dent that clearly shows the overtaking driver had the right to the line. But dents don't show that it was a banzai move, just a snapshot at the time of contact. In those cases the overtaken driver is going to lose unless multiple reliable sources can show it was a banzai pass. Under our current rule it is more likely that both drivers or neither will be penalized. Not perfect but it leaves the judgement more open

Also, consider a case where the overtaking cars gets even with the magic right of way point. Not in front or behind but even. That's a hell of judgement call to determine who has the right to the line.

Again, I'm not saying a revision to the rule isn't possible but it's damn hard to come up with something that works well for all situations. Put something in writing and we can debate the finer points. But, keep in mind the two big problems will remain, reliable evidence/witnesses and consistent stewarding. I don't think a rule change is going to effect wither of those.

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~Matt Rowe
ITA Shelby Charger
MARRS #96

[oanglade]

In my opinion, if they got their front bumper to the inside of my rear bumper, I have to give them enough space and can't simply shut the door on them. Otherwise, in my opinion, I knew he was there and I forced the contact.

I don't believe in the "the other car has to be completely along side me or it's my line..." It's not my line anymore if I have to create contact to keep it.

Just my opinion.

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Ony Anglade
ITA Miata
Sugar Hill, GA

[Daryl DeArman]

If you guys are tired of all the rubbin' is racin' come out and join the open wheel crowd. Given the consequences they appear to be infinetly more respectful of 'racing room' and will actually find ways to make passes/prevent passes without resorting to NASCRAP tactics moving you out of the way.

I have a problem with a hardfast rule defining where someone's car has to be. There has to be subjectivity. If one has the right to choose any line whatsoever until we are up to their door, we are giving them the option of pinching down or drifting up into the area we occupy and we as the passee are expected to take evassive action to avoid contact. That could make it extremely difficult to ever make a pass when cars are of very similar cornering speeds. Yet if you make the rule so that any overlap gives both parties an equal responsibility; what about the banzai move that gets the bug on the front bumper just up to my rear bumper?

I feel that I only have the right to whatever piece of real estate on the track that I want when I can put my car there without initiating contact or cause you to brake/check up/drop wheels to avoid contact.

All I need to do is leave enough room for your car minus a sheet of paper on the desired side and you'll have to work your way around the hard side. Rest assured I won't make it easy, but advancing/defending by contact takes very little skill. I have zero respect for those who race that way.

[Wayne]

Please, no more rules. The gcr is already 3" thick...

[Eagle7]

Originally posted by Wayne:
Please, no more rules. The gcr is already 3" thick...

Actually, it's 1.5". Maybe yours was printed single-sided?

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Marty Doane
ITS RX-7 #13
CenDiv WMR

[mlytle]

actually, the gcr itself is pretty thin...it is the comp spec's that make the book thick....

[Mike Guenther]

Ony, you have my agreement on this.

"In my opinion, if they got their front bumper to the inside of my rear bumper, I have to give them enough space and can't simply shut the door on them. Otherwise, in my opinion, I knew he was there and I forced the contact.

I don't believe in the "the other car has to be completely along side me or it's my line..." It's not my line anymore if I have to create contact to keep it."

If they got there I respect their ability and give them the respect that I would expect if I had worked my way to that point. Its about having fun and respecting each other, not being butt heads just to get that plaque. All the senarios about what might be done to get up there and what might happen because of it are just some of the many possibilities that take place in the dynamics of racing. It is still all club racing for fun and excitement and sometimes things don't go the way we would like them to in that second of action. But respecting your fellow racers will bring you many friends that are comfortable going door to door with you and enhancing that adrenalin rush.

Ony, you said it clearly, thank you.

[gsbaker]

Originally posted by Mike Guenther:
...If they got there I respect their ability and give them the respect that I would expect if I had worked my way to that point. Its about having fun and respecting each other, not being butt heads just to get that plaque....

I'm with Ony too. It can only mean one thing if the same car fills your mirrors: they are faster.

Reminds me of my school experience when I asked my instructor how best to handle letting cars by. He suggested I drive faster so it wouldn't be a problem. Wise guy.

G

[ITANorm]

Originally posted by Mike Guenther:
"In my opinion, if they got their front bumper to the inside of my rear bumper, I have to give them enough space and can't simply shut the door on them. Otherwise, in my opinion, I knew he was there and I forced the contact.

However, if somebody forces their way in on an attempted pass that is at best inadvisable, and I will have to alter my normal line to allow him through (possibly putting me in a hazardous situation), there's liable to be a bit of paint swapped.

If he was truly a faster car, I would have probably already waved him by to start with.


[This message has been edited by ITANorm (edited May 13, 2005).]

[Mike Guenther]

Norm,
these are the situations I'm talking about. Yes, sometimes paint is exchanged if you're racing someone. If its someone I know and respect, we might be racing for a few turns or even a few laps and if a little paint is exchanged between friends, well that's the price for adrenlin today. But if its someone I don't know and haven't developed a trust and friendship with yet, I'm probably gonna give in to them and follow them for a few laps and then pick my corner to make a move and start racing with them. Or maybe not race them at all. If I don't feel comfortable sharing the track with them side by side, I won't risk wrecking my car over that position for a piece of wood at the end. I don't care as much about position as I do about having fun racing with guys (& gals), that I can trust that they will race clean. If you drive up on the inside of me and go a bit deep, that's O.K., but you better be able to keep your car under control. I'll give you plenty of room to track out, but I still need a car width myself, so don't push me off. Let's go racing.

[This message has been edited by Mike Guenther (edited May 13, 2005).]

[bldn10]

Here is some rule language I posted on the SCCA Passing Rules thread back in Jan.:

"Provided that it is under control and can otherwise safely negotiate the corner, if the overtaking car can achieve a position alongside the overtaken car such that its front axle is forward of the overtaken car's rear axle without causing the overtaken car to alter its normal line, then the overtaking car is entitled to racing room and the overtaken car cannot impede the overtaking car."

This retains the concepts of "racing room" and "blocking" in our current rules but expressly makes car position relevant.

The other side of the equation is to not only retain but beef up the anti-contact rule w/ something like this:

"If the overtaking car forces a pass in violation of this rule and the overtaken car loses a position in order to avoid contact, the overtaking car will be penalized appropriately."

The intention of this is to protect the guy who, as Matt said, acts responsibly and gives up the corner to avoid contact even when he has the line. And conversely to punish the bullies who rely on others to do all the contact avoiding.

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Bill Denton
87/89 ITS RX-7
02 Audi TT225QC
95 Tahoe
Memphis

[lateapex911]

Bill, that's a great line. And I agree with it in principal.

The issue I see is at what point during the event of the corner is the overlap to be obtained??

In other words, if I am being overtaken, my "normal line" WILL have to be altered at some point. But that point varies corner to corner, and car to car.

WHEN am I forced to alter my line to accomodate?

And, how can that be worded in such a way as to cover all eventualities??

I think that is the key to the general vagueness of the current rule.

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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]