How common is cheating?

[lateapex911]

Lessons I learned this summer (about racing):

As it stands, with the current system, :

1- If you see or think something is wrong, try to determine the reality of your suspicion, and the cause. Is it malicious? Major? A mistake? A different interpretation? Perhaps discussing it, without spreading rumours and innuendo with other respected racers will help your opinion.

2- Approach the guy/girl that you have an issue with. Your approach will be dependant on what your opinion of the issue is, but obviously, it shouldn't be overly aggressive or accusatory.

3- Depending on the results of that conversation, you will be faced with a possible decision. Is this a significant issue that the other guy is refusing to resolve? Or will he take care of it?
(To me, I'm not going to waste my time with minor non performance enhancing items....there are bigger fish to fry)
If you find that the issue is significant and you feel strongly that is is not being resolved, then you need to run it through the system.

4- This is the part that sucks. Write the protest. Lots of people will try to talk you out of it, for various reasons:

a- If you loose you'll look like a jerk

b- You have better things to do with your time.(It can be very time consuming...hours and hours)

c- There will be bad blood, regardless of the outcome

d- It's hard to write an effective protest.

e- The protest procedure has been proven to be sketchy in it's ability to resolve the situation cleanly.

f- The officials have better things to do with their time.


When I was planning the protest discussed in "A Protest Story", I heard each of those resons, from various people I consulted with.

My comments on those are:

a- If I present a well reasoned protest, and handle myself professionally, then reasonable people will not think of me as a jerk. If others do, I can't be worried about their opinion.

b- The time quotient is significant. Propper planning can alleviate that.

c- There already IS bad blood! If the guys a cheater, lets get it out. If he's legal, then I figure walk over, shake his hand, and say, "Sorry to put you through this, I was wrong in my suspicions and it looks like you are doing an awesome drivng job, fair enough."

d- It IS hard to write an effective protest. Do your homework. Know what IS and what ISN'T supposed to be on the car, and spell it out clearly in black and white. Be sure to have alternative measures spelled out in the protest to handle things that are ambigious. In our protest we threw in a last minute item that seemed obvious. Well, we didn't read the rule carefully, and while we shook our heads at what the rule lets FWD cars get away with, it was legal. We should have read more carefully and tested it ourselves before including it.

e- This I was warned about, but I am still surprised with the decisions that were made in the protest referred to above.. I worry about decisions that were flat wrong, either due to inexplicable 'brain farts', or favoritism. I don't feel it will happen that way every time however. And writing a good protest can go a long way to eliminate issues. If things DO go wrong, and the protest crew makes mistakes, a well written protest will be the item that makes it super easy to appeal and win. So, while we all hope for a clean and quick resolution, the system doesn't always deliver it ...not right away at least.

f- We have tons of officials. That is why they signed up. By the same token, don't be a jerk and save a huge protest until the very last minute. Technically, you can, but the downsides outweigh the positives of that approach.

Finally, while the "system" clearly has issues, without a complete rebuilding of it, we need to work it. Without practice, it will only get rustier and more broken.

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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[Quickshoe]

Bill,

I am also for severe penalties for blatant cheats. However "what if" I were to buy a car and it was found to be illegal after its' first race? You know something that I didn't have the means to checkout prior to buying the car.

Greg,

I don't recall the other topic reaching a resolution, as you said it is a deadhorse. However this topic went from "How common" to "varying degrees" to "why is this even allowed" it was headed towards the ECU, Remote reservior, washer bottle route. I think cheating is way too common and tolerated, and was trying to bring it somewhat back on topic.

Jake,

You are right, the system needs work. Perhaps exercising it more often will keep it a little more tuned.



[This message has been edited by Quickshoe (edited December 12, 2004).]

[lateapex911]

I forgot about penalties...

I agree that stiff penalties are important, but all to often they don't seem to fit the crime. Why is that?

Two protests I have first hand knowledge of:

1- A Spec Miata was protested for a laundry list of items requiring teardown. All was found to be in spec, (although the head was warped), except the owner had an exhaust manifold that had been slightly cracked. He welded it, then ground it down. Bad idea. "Altering" is what that was, although the alterning had no performance gain. I understand that the driver actually had to take the manifold into the sunlight to show the inspector the repair. When asked when he did the repair, he answered honestly, and was nailed in his forhead with "the book". Loss of all points for the season, loss of all race results, some financial bond loss, and 7 driver points and was put on probation. He was typically a top 5 driver.

2- The Hawthorne protest resulted in another teardown, but in this case it was found that he had installed high compression domed pistons (that were visible to a casual observer of the protest teardown 20+ feet away). The driver said he didn't personally install them. The Stewards never bothered to determine the installation date. The penaty? He was excluded from the race.

(I asked the Steward who reported the results to me about the lack of severity of the penalty, and he indicated that the driver was very unhappy, and that the Stewards felt that "stigma" would be penalty alone.

To me, this makes little sense.
#1 paid dearly for no peformance gain. #2 won races, ran at the front and trophied in others (depriving other cars a better finish) and set a track record, but lost only one race finish.

I am STILL at a loss as to how to resolve this.

It is hard for me not to think that the Stewards didn't like #1, but thought #2 was a great guy.

------------------
Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[Bill Miller]

Daryl,

As I said in the other thread, the car gets one pass. It's noted in the logbook. So, if someone's buying a car, they should look at the log book, and, if there's an entry, they need to get proof from the seller that it was corrected.

I won't even go into the whole "buyer beware" side of things, if there were an entry in the logbook.

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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[apr67]

Ok, soo you guys don't see a problem with blocks and decking.

Try this.

How far down into your ports do your valve guides have to be?

How do you prove that mine or yours are legal?

[Joe Harlan]

Valve guide material is unrestricted....I am not sure that allows a different shape or location.

[kthomas]

Dimensions have to be stock. That's a common cheater thing to do- whack off the valve guides where they stick out into the port. Some factory service manuals, like that for a 240Z, give the appropriate guide dimensions. Otherwise you compare it to a known stock part.

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katman

[Bill Miller]

Interesting points about the valve quides. Since the material is free, I'm not so sure the dimensions aren't as well. As long as it fits stock valves and fits the the stock guide hole in the head. Where in the ITCS does it say that they have to meet stock dimensions?

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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[jlucas]

Ok, I'm in the dark on this one. How would valve guide depth be an advantage?

[Bill Miller]

Originally posted by jlucas:
Ok, I'm in the dark on this one. How would valve guide depth be an advantage?

It would be less mass in the port, so you could flow more air through it.

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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[Joe Harlan]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">As long as it fits stock valves and fits the the stock guide hole in the head. Where in the ITCS does it say that they have to meet stock dimensions?</font>

Bill, the fact that it doesn't say you can would indicate you can't. I don't have the rule number but I believe there is some wording to the effect any parts not listed are assumed to meet factory specs. I think that the guide material is free but there is no wording allowing the size or shape to change.

[Bill Miller]

Joe,

That's why I think you can change the size and the shape. They call out the valve guides by saying the material is free, yet they don't put any other restrictions on it. There are other cases in the GCR, where alternate widgets are allowed and they expressly say that they must be the same size/shape/etc. as factory. Once they call something out, the rest is open. And what happens if you can't get a stock part to compare to? I haven't checked, but I don't know if I could buy stock Rabbit 1.6 guides anymore. How about stock guides for and L16?

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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[kthomas]

It says material is free, not dimensions. To do so is illegal. Anything not specifically allowed is therefore not. Period. Definite performance advantage. I'd protest it, and win.

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katman

[apr67]

Originally posted by kthomas:
Some factory service manuals, like that for a 240Z, give the appropriate guide dimensions. Otherwise you compare it to a known stock part.

Known stock? The only part that I can think of would be a new one from the dealer. In some cases assembled heads are not available (for example, mazda only sells a bare casting).

Beyond that, these things all have tolerances. So the fact that mine is further in (or out) doesn't indicate cheating.

If its a 1/2 inch difference, then sure, thats obvious.

[bhudson]

Getting back to the general topic of cheating and away from the specifics....

Accusations of widespread cheating are nothing new. In the mid-70's everyone believed that everyone else in Production was cheating.

This morning I read an interesting column about the general attitudes of cheating in America. Here's the link:

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/livin...10403178.htm?1c

Enjoy

Bob Hudson
Atlanta Region

[kthomas]

Originally posted by apr67:
Known stock? The only part that I can think of would be a new one from the dealer. In some cases assembled heads are not available (for example, mazda only sells a bare casting).

Beyond that, these things all have tolerances. So the fact that mine is further in (or out) doesn't indicate cheating.

If its a 1/2 inch difference, then sure, thats obvious.

And yes, if you're on your way to a protest you might have to bring a factory new part in a sealed box of the item you are protesting. For the Z I had a brand new head casting in fact (for defensive purposes mostly). If not available you or tech might have to samle some of the part in question from a junkyard. It's happened. Tolerances are also usually specified in the FSM, or tech might use "normal and customary for the industry".

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katman

[dickita15]

I would be suprised if the protester would be allowed to provide the know legal sample. I think the procedure is for the stewards to order a new part from a dealer. bond includes the restocking fee.
dick

[lateapex911]

Correct...the protester, NOR the defendant are allowed to supply "known stock" items as proof of in either direction, for obvious reasons.

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Jake Gulick
CarriageHouse Motorsports
ITA 57 RX-7
New England Region
[email protected]

[RSTPerformance]

If any of you wnat to know why we have cheating go read the who to go to thread. It makes it a simple answer on why we have cheating.

1.) Everyone has different interpretations
2.) You can't ask anyone if anything is illegal
3.) You can't find out if anything is legal or illeagal unless you have someone else spend money to protest you. Then appeal it to Topeka. and this waists everyone time
4.) If you do protest someone then everyone thinks your an A$$^*!# and you loose all your friends.

hmmmmmm I can't understand why so many people cheat and get away with it? We need to have a person we can go to with questions on legality. It should be simple and anyone should be able to ask. Kinda like a rules mediator. This person should be available and every region should have a person they can contact. It needs to be simpler. I should not have to protest my brother then take that protest and apeal it to Topeka. It waists money that I don't have and it waists time that I don't have. This should be Fun not a pain in the...

Stephen

[apr67]

Steven.

That will never work. The only way to have rules decided clearly would be a rules czar, or a board/comitee that acted as a rules czar.

A single entitiy has to make the decision, document it, and stand by it.