How common is cheating?

[tom91ita]

for me it comes down to intent and if there is an advantage. there are many things that are gray.

i noted in the underpulley 'forum' that i had lightened my underpulley because the rules say i can substitute. in my mind, i substituted a lighter pulley that was same diameter and same material of construction.

but in somebody else's view, it was a "modification." i thought i was doing a decent job of prepping my car and others may label me a cheater.

quick questions:

can i use nitrogen to inflate my tires instead of air? do the rules say i can?

can i inflate to pressures other the car's manual? rules don't say i can.

am i really limited to 7" rim width in ita? 7" is a tire/wheel industry convention and mostly relates to the seating width of the rim. the "actual" width of a 14x7 rim is greater than 7". am i cheater? guess so!

i know some of the above are absurd but that's why i own a fire suit. its best used when throwing fuel on a fire.

i like to think the majority are not cheating. i have seen things that i thought were reaching the limits but if i am beating them, i tend to not worry. if they are beating me, then i'll have to worry. wait a minute, most every one was beating me. excuse me, i need to ponder that a while.

[This message has been edited by tom91ita (edited December 10, 2004).]

[JohnRW]

Originally posted by GregAmy:
The shop manual specifications allow milling the head(s) and/or block within certain service limits. Therefore, to be legal, the head(s) and block deck height must be within these limits *and* result in a compression ratio within 1/2-point of stock. - GA

Yeah...what he said.

[Geezer]

Originally posted by apr67:
No where in the ITCS does it say you can deck the block.

So, what makes this legal?

ITCS says you can blueprint the engine. (17.1.4.A.1.k) Squaring up an uneven deck would seem to be part of blueprinting, and isn't included in the GCR definition of "blueprinting" as something you cannot do. If someone gets a little heavy-handed with the milling machine and bumps the compression more than 0.5 points over stock specs, now that's illegal.

[cherokee]

How common is it...if this is applied I think that quite a few (expecially older cars) would fall into this catagory.

Originally posted by Catch22:


1. You do something that is technically illegal, but doesn't give you a competitive advantage at all. You do it for financial reasons. You gain no advantage, but the rulebook doesn't allow for it, so its illegal. Typically these things are let go by your peers and you aren't considered to be a "cheater."

I would like to know how many people have a car that fall into this catagory. I would add that you do it for reasons that are just logical. (wiring comes to mind)

[apr67]

Originally posted by Geezer:
ITCS says you can blueprint the engine. (17.1.4.A.1.k) Squaring up an uneven deck would seem to be part of blueprinting

What if the deck was square before you started? What if you took off more than you needed to just square the deck (but were sill legal on compression ratio)?

In both cases you are technically not legal, because it is not in the rules to allow you to do that. But the reality is, even if you have a car with a brand new engine (i.e. a crate) you are going to probably want to mill the block to increase the compression ratio to the max legal level. And no one is ever going to be able to say "The block only needed a thou off, you took two, you are cheating.".

[Geezer]

Originally posted by apr67:
What if the deck was square before you started? What if you took off more than you needed to just square the deck (but were sill legal on compression ratio)?

In both cases you are technically not legal, because it is not in the rules to allow you to do that. But the reality is, even if you have a car with a brand new engine (i.e. a crate) you are going to probably want to mill the block to increase the compression ratio to the max legal level. And no one is ever going to be able to say "The block only needed a thou off, you took two, you are cheating.".

There's no restriction on how much you could mill the block to true it, or even that it needs to be out of true beforehand, as long as it ends up within factory specs and doesn't increase the compression by more than 0.5 points. Blueprinting is by definition building the engine to the optimal factory specs.

the "Was it in true to begin with?" argument is unenforcable anyway, unless you require everyone to have their un-blueprinted block measured before any work is done. I don't think that's going to happen.

[This message has been edited by Geezer (edited December 10, 2004).]

[Mike Guenther]

Is an aluminum flywheel legal?

Here's an excerp from an ad posted on this site for an engine:
I have several podiums along with a first place weekend sweep at Daytona in 2003. A racing Beat aluminum flywheel and racing clutch are included along with two bullet proof transmissions. the engine is still in the car but will remove after the new year or a deal is cut. Im located in Fort Lauderdale Florida

I'm not picking on the seller, I'm just curious if a lightweight flywheel is legal in IT.

[Greg Amy]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Is an aluminum flywheel legal?</font>

Only if it came from the factory that way.

And now our slogan: "He's a cheatin'. Wonder what else?"

[Geo]

Originally posted by apr67:
No where in the ITCS does it say you can deck the block.

So, what makes this legal?

Well, most FSMs I'll bet have something in them about resurfacing the deck. If so, that makes it legal.

I also agree with the idea that if there is no way of finding something illegal, effectively it's legal. For instance, bending a live axle on a 1st gen RX-7. How can you determine legality? You can't. So effectively, it's legal.


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[Geo]

Now if y'all want some creative rules interpretation, I can give you one....

Intake is free before the air metering device so long as the source is under hood or the stock location.

Exhaust is free from the head back.

So, I add a turbo between the exhaust and the intake and it's free, right?

Now that's a creative rule interpretation!

[tongue firmly in cheek!]


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[Greg Amy]

Good try, man, but 17.1.4.A covers that.

Next?

[apr67]

My miata FSM spells out how warped it has to be before you suface it.

So technically, if your deck was within spec, it would not be legal to deck it.

I'm not arguing that everyone who does this is a cheater. My argument is that the rule is poorly written and unenforceable.

[Catch22]

Originally posted by apr67:
My argument is that the rule is poorly written and unenforceable.

No, the rule is written to cover hundreds of different cars, including ones that don't have such block info as your Miata in their FSMs.

Its a rule that needs to be there, and is currently written the ONLY way it CAN be consistently enforced.

What do you guys suggest???
Dont just provide questions. Provide some answers.

[Quickshoe]

Originally posted by tom91ita:
am i really limited to 7" rim width in ita? 7" is a tire/wheel industry convention and mostly relates to the seating width of the rim. the "actual" width of a 14x7 rim is greater than 7".

Yes you are limited to a 7" width rim. Per the GCR clossary "The distance between the opposing lateral sides of a road wheel in the region where the bead of a tire seats. Measuring method per tire and rim association standard."

[Geo]

Originally posted by GregAmy:
Good try, man, but 17.1.4.A covers that.

Spoil sport.


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[Knestis]

I think Geo is talking about a muffler, the purpose of which is to extract energy (sound, typically) from the exhaust gas, and turn it into some other kind of energy.

K

[Geo]

Originally posted by Knestis:
I think Geo is talking about a muffler, the purpose of which is to extract energy (sound, typically) from the exhaust gas, and turn it into some other kind of energy.

K

Either that or I've got gas.


------------------
George Roffe
Houston, TX
84 944 ITS car under construction
92 ITS Sentra SE-R occasionally borrowed
http://www.nissport.com

[This message has been edited by Geo (edited December 12, 2004).]

[Quickshoe]

Rather than arguing what is legal and what isn't, does anyone have any suggestions as to how we can reduce the amount of cheating that goes on? Ways that can be enforced in the SCCA IT world.

We have competitors who are willing to cheat, motor builders and prep shops that are willing to do so (I'm not talking about creative interpretations) Perhaps we need severe penalties for certain violations that would eventually weed out the flagrant cheaters.

[Bill Miller]

Daryl,

My suggestion was that they pull the log books on those cars, and ban them. A database would have to be established in Topeka, that recorded the VIN#s of those cars that get booted (so you just couldn't put a new cage in and get a new logbook). It's not perfect, and it won't stop someone from just building another illegal car. But at least it will hit them pretty hard in the wallet.

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MARRS #25 ITB Rabbit GTI (sold) | MARRS #25 HProd Rabbit
SCCA 279608

[Greg Amy]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">...does anyone have any suggestions as to how we can reduce the amount of cheating that goes on?</font>

We beat this dead horse last summer; feel free to resurrect the topic:

Topic: Ways to reduce illegal cars? New methods? (just a bit long)
http://forum.improvedtouring.com/it/Forum2...TML/000670.html